how much is enough?

[NATURALIS]

Originally Posted by EJ

I'm almost affraid to respond to this because of the thought that it might be perceived as an attack... You bring out some seriously important points that are good topics of discussion...

How do you know tortoises need lower levels of protein? The important point I like to stress is that a tortoise is a reptile and the metabolism/protein requirement is temperature dependent. I would also assume that any protein not required would be expelled.

My view's here are that reptile's require less protein because there cold blooded and rely on external heat , the mammal require more because its needs to keep the body warm . These are only my view's .

[EJ]

Sorry... kid gloves are off...

When you make comments like this you give the new keeper a specific impression.

'it isn't natural'... what exactly does that mean? What does each tortosie experience in nature... if you can put that into a single difinative range... you would most likely be lying... especially in the case of Testudo or many other tortoises whos ranges expand through a few lattitudes.

We are not fattening up the animals... most try to provide as ideal conditions as possible... for what ever reason.

Now... define 'ideal conditions'... my perception is an environment that provides nutrition to grow and the other requirements to properly metabolise that nutrition.

Originally Posted by red foot marg

Ths wasn't meant personaly , but the quote : (old school ) is still the best school ,i understand where your comming from re: keeping the heat on and light's , but thats something i don't do it isn't natural ,i really try to add to these debates but lets not forget where not fatening animals up like cattle here !!.

[EJ]

Did you cross check the numbers... even if you use the internet?

The net is a great resource but it is always a good idea to cross check the references. This is true even when using printed references... always go to the reference section first to see how well the topic was researched... and interpreted.

Originally Posted by red foot marg

http://www.graeca-home.de/GraecaNUNa...elle2Frame.htm

[NATURALIS]

Originally Posted by stells

The link you put up was interesting... it does bring to attention the amount of difference between dry and wet matter... with dry being higher in the percentage of protein... therefore... people feeding dried weeds etc... are feeding a higher percentage of protein... than myself and my wet salad...

Good point Kelly , but by adding grass or clover hay the fibre content is far greater than is found in salad's ie: 37 % fibre in grass and 30 % in clover hay

[NATURALIS]

Originally Posted by EJ

Sorry... kid gloves are off...

When you make comments like this you give the new keeper a specific impression.

'it isn't natural'... what exactly does that mean? What does each tortosie experience in nature... if you can put that into a single difinative range... you would most likely be lying... especially in the case of Testudo or many other tortoises whos ranges expand through a few lattitudes.

We are not fattening up the animals... most try to provide as ideal conditions as possible... for what ever reason.

Now... define 'ideal conditions'... my perception is an environment that provides nutrition to grow and the other requirements to properly metabolise that nutrition.

Glad to hear the gloves are off !!, the first point i made was in answer to the coment Kelly made re: it is not natural to give heat and light 24/7 in regard to feeding at lib with salad's my point there was that tortoise's lay dormant for many months without feeding , ok some feed in the evening when its cooler , some don't ,but that still leaves spring and autumn when they dig down because of cold period's, the point i was trying to make was by keeping them in optimum temps 24/7 isn't the same as in nature . On your last two lines i agree with but in nature is there such a thing as ideal conditions 24/7

[ziggy's owner]

Wow great thread loved reading it

[EJ]

What is natural when you consider that many species range over a few lattitudes. How would you convey to any keeper a 'natural' temperature range?

Tortoises lay dormant because they have to to survive... given an ideal environment they will normally thrive.

In nature the tortoise seeks ideal conditions. When they cannot find it... they adapt to survive... or... die.

Originally Posted by red foot marg

Glad to hear the gloves are off !!, the first point i made was in answer to the coment Kelly made re: it is not natural to give heat and light 24/7 in regard to feeding at lib with salad's my point there was that tortoise's lay dormant for many months without feeding , ok some feed in the evening when its cooler , some don't ,but that still leaves spring and autumn when they dig down because of cold period's, the point i was trying to make was by keeping them in optimum temps 24/7 isn't the same as in nature . On your last two lines i agree with but in nature is there such a thing as ideal conditions 24/7

[NATURALIS]

Originally Posted by EJ

What is natural when you consider that many species range over a few lattitudes. How would you convey to any keeper a 'natural' temperature range?

Tortoises lay dormant because they have to to survive... given an ideal environment they will normally thrive.

In nature the tortoise seeks ideal conditions. When they cannot find it... they adapt to survive... or... die.

a natural temprature range can only be averages from there range and then twik it some to suit.to answer your second point ,so why try to change it , after all tortoise's have been on the earth for millions of years so why change things ?, look's like they have it cracked to me.

[EJ]

Like I said... you bring up some amazing points...

Do you know exactly where you tortoises orininated from... or the parents if you have offspring... although I'm of the belief that behavior is not too dependent on genetics as far as the basic requirements go.

Yea... why try to change it... provide a temperature of 75 to 95F... food... water... see where it goes from there.

You do have to factor in local ambient temperature.

Bottom line... don't give your pets a reason to adapt. Nature has conditioned them to seek a specific metabolism based on temperature... or... perish. Why not give them the paramaters that they seek?

Originally Posted by red foot marg

a natural temprature range can only be averages from there range and then twik it some to suit.to answer your second point ,so why try to change it , after all tortoise's have been on the earth for millions of years so why change things ?, look's like they have it cracked to me.

[EJ]

Try and reread this specific post...
'twix it to suit'? Think about that a moment. Then... 'why try to change it'?

Yea... they have it cracked... they are trying to survive given the conditions that are presented to them. Why not provide a good environmental condition with good nutrition.

Originally Posted by red foot marg

a natural temprature range can only be averages from there range and then twik it some to suit.to answer your second point ,so why try to change it , after all tortoise's have been on the earth for millions of years so why change things ?, look's like they have it cracked to me.