Article 10 loopholes...it's crazy!!!

[Inca08]

I read an earlier thread regarding article 10 certificates and it got me thinking about the loopholes involved...i am personally shocked at how easy it seems to be to buy and sell these so called "protected" creatures without the appropriate paperwork.
For instance if i had a tort with paperwork and it died or we lost it,wouldnt it be too easy just to buy a tortoise without papers and pass it off as the dead or lost one???
Whats the point in introducing such laws when anyone can obtain a tortoise and keep them in any condition,with or without papers? oh and the whole "you can keep a tortoise without a certificate if it was a gift" is a total joke...wont every dodgy person claim to have "gifted" their tortoises???
Wheres the protection really???

[Pussygalore]

I think its called being honest, which is why most of us recomend that you buy from a good known breeder. I don't know about the new system but I only brought enough certs for the amount of hatchlings I had last year and they'd have been no good for any this year due to the date of hatching on each cert, the size wouldn't be right. I'd also imagine that if defra have computers which I assume they have then if at any point in the future two matching numbers from the same breeder/shop occured ie if the new owner was updating then their computer would notice and the breeder/shop would hopefully get in trouble. However if as you suggest that you brought another tort and used your old cert then you'd need to find a tort without papers which would be a pointless excersise

[Alan1]

Originally Posted by Inca08

I read an earlier thread regarding article 10 certificates and it got me thinking about the loopholes involved...i am personally shocked at how easy it seems to be to buy and sell these so called "protected" creatures without the appropriate paperwork.
For instance if i had a tort with paperwork and it died or we lost it,wouldnt it be too easy just to buy a tortoise without papers and pass it off as the dead or lost one???
Whats the point in introducing such laws when anyone can obtain a tortoise and keep them in any condition,with or without papers? oh and the whole "you can keep a tortoise without a certificate if it was a gift" is a total joke...wont every dodgy person claim to have "gifted" their tortoises???
Wheres the protection really???

yes it is a joke really, particularly as people have been jailed for breaking that law. People have been jailed yet you almost need a solicitor to explain the ins and outs of the law to you. Those people who have been jailed knew exactly what they were doing by the way and it wasn't just a single tortoise passed off as a gift, it was a much larger scale operation by it just shows how seriously they can take it yet they have it set up in a way that makes it so easy to get round.

Swad's idea was that every tortoise that required a certificate should have one right from the start and in the exact same way that a car has a registration document and each time the tort was sold then both the buyer and seller would have to complete the sections of the form and send them off. If a tort died then the form would have to be sent in declaring that it had. It would not be foolproof unless every tort was microchipped but that may be coming with the arrival of such tiny new microchips

[Alan1]

The main thing at the moment is lack of information, people are simply not informed of what's required when they buy from a shop, being handed a certificate (often the wrong one for the wrong breed of tort) simply isn't enough. There should be much more info given out along with the certificate in the form of a full explanation pamphlet from DEFRA of what's required in the event of future sale. DEFRA should provide this info in pamphlet form and make it available free of charge to anyone who sells Med torts. The Government do it for cars, you can get them from any post office so why not for torts?