Random thoughts on acquiring torts.

[JerryMaffz]

I guess Vikki's thread has got me thinking....
My plan was always to wait until I know the sex of Jerry before considering the acquisition of another tortoise. My intention being to rehome another one or two of around the same age at that time. Yes, that WAS the plan.
However, I have recently had a spanner thrown in the works, as probably so many of you have, by reading a certain book by Wolfgang Wegehaupt.
He states that it is beneficial for little tortoises to grow up with other little tortoises.
Now, I'm well aware of the implications of this ie incorrect sex ratios etc. but reasoned, like Vikki, that one more might be easily accommodated.
This brings me on to something else...
I purchased Jerry from a TPG recommended breeder who lives locally. The benefits of this are that I have an active, healthy tortoise from an excellent, knowledgeable breeder, which was hatched in my local area from parents that have enjoyed outside life in my locality for decades. The perfect place to get Jerry a companion from, you might think.
However, if I intend to eventually create a group that might one day breed, then purchasing from this trusted breeder would inevitably result in genetic inbreeding, this can't be good.
Am I thinking into this too much Or do I have a point?..Or do I ignore Mr. Wegehaupt and stick to the plan?...I welcome your thoughts.

[alley cat]

Your breeder may be able to supply you with an unrelated youngster if they usually mark the babies and keep records etc.

[Ozric Jonathan]

I agree with Alley. Most breeders will have several females and will know which babies came from which.

Tortoise genetics is not the same as human, but don't ask me to explain as I can't!

If two babies come from different mothers but share a father, there is little genetic commonality between the two babies.

[vikki]

Hi Keith,
My reasoning behind getting another tortoise now.
1. Herbie is young enough to be able to live with another
2. I was able to locate a similar age tortoise which may be more difficult in 12montrhs etc. - even now I had to travel to achieve this.
3.You only live once and never know what is round the corner so sometimes need to take opportunities while you can (Thanks to Gordon for those words of wisdom!)
4. If you wait until Jerry is old enough to sex and he/she turns out to definitely be a he then the chances are you may not get another.

These are my personal thoughts and my main priority was always on the tortoises and their welfare in as much as could I give two tortoises the correct accommodation/care etc.
When I felt that I could probably offer a better home than where some poor tortoises end up I felt that I was happy to get another now.
I would not rule out rescue/rehome in the future depending on what sex herbie and daisy turn out to be but it will depend on my circumstances etc at that time as who knows what life will bring!!

[Pussygalore]

I always thought that when torts hatch in the wild they might stay in the vicinity of the nest for a day or two then go off their separate ways, mostly hiding where they feel safe. If thats right then where does the idea that they enjoy/benefit from other company, yes my hatchlings did group together but surely that's because they had no choice ie being in a table and sleeping away from the hot end, they slept in the best place and that just happened to be where the others were. If I had hatched them outside in a large enclosure would they still have sought out company or gone of by themselves?. I still think that wanting friends or company is a human emotion and although some animals do live in groups or herds they are mostly mammals and not reptiles and torts certainly don't in the wild unless its the only water supply etc. I'm not saying they won't live in groups in captivity but its more from lack of space than choice.

[vikki]

Lets be honest how many captive animals (especially those not in their native countries) live in conditions that are even close to how they would in the wild. Again I think the main concern should be the welfare of the animal and providing the best you can. If the tortoises are not stressed about being in the same enclosure then surely that is what matters. If they get stressed/fight constantly etc then they should be separated and people must ensure they should have the space etc to do so.

[Pussygalore]

my point was refering to the book stating it was beneficial for torts to grow up together, I just wondered where the idea came from as it wouldn't have been observed in the wild. I loved to see the hatchlings 'cuddling' up to sleep and would always sell two to a new owner providing they understood the strong possibilty of having to separate when older but my point also is that they are fine by themselves and observing mine used to spend far more time as older torts by themselves than with another tort, apart from my randy male who never left the missus alone. They never seemed to actively seek each other.

[tortydat]

I always think that a hatchling looks so small and lost on its own but I leave it to the individual person as to whether they home one, two or even three. Incidentally when I went to Turkey a couple of years ago I was surprised to find youngsters obviously from the same hatching living very closeby to each other as I always thought they lived solitary lives.

Mary

[JerryMaffz]

Originally Posted by Pussygalore

my point was refering to the book stating it was beneficial for torts to grow up together, I just wondered where the idea came from as it wouldn't have been observed in the wild. I loved to see the hatchlings 'cuddling' up to sleep and would always sell two to a new owner providing they understood the strong possibilty of having to separate when older but my point also is that they are fine by themselves and observing mine used to spend far more time as older torts by themselves than with another tort, apart from my randy male who never left the missus alone. They never seemed to actively seek each other.

Wolfgangs ideas in fact do come from his research in wild habitat.

To quote him...."They are not hermits but rather exist in a loose society of co-existing neighbours"
"The term "solitary" that is often applied to Hermanns tortoises is often misinterpreted as" animals that encounter conspecifics only rarely and find each other only during the mating season". This is not at all the case in original, intact habitats , however."
"Young Hermann's Tortoises grow up in the wild in close proximity of each other"
"Not least due to my many hours of observation in the wild am I convinced that keeping Hermann's properly means keeping several of them together."
"Hermann's Tortoises kept in solitude will hardly exhibit natural behaviour and tend to find substitute objects of conspecifics that fit the picture at least approximately in shape and size".

[Suze65]

Originally Posted by JerryMaffz

Wolfgangs ideas in fact do come from his research in wild habitat.

To quote him...."They are not hermits but rather exist in a loose society of co-existing neighbours"
"The term "solitary" that is often applied to Hermanns tortoises is often misinterpreted as" animals that encounter conspecifics only rarely and find each other only during the mating season". This is not at all the case in original, intact habitats , however."
"Young Hermann's Tortoises grow up in the wild in close proximity of each other"
"Not least due to my many hours of observation in the wild am I convinced that keeping Hermann's properly means keeping several of them together."
"Hermann's Tortoises kept in solitude will hardly exhibit natural behaviour and tend to find substitute objects of conspecifics that fit the picture at least approximately in shape and size".

But as was pointed out to me when I read this, how has he studied wild hatchlings , they lead very secretive lives and are rarely seen.