Urgent Help needed - MOUTHROT!

Celestite1983 · 23-05-2010, 10:34 AM

We have a very poorly little baby tortoise, who has developed signs of mouthrot post-hibernation. We did have a book that is excellent for reference but have mislaid it.

We are administering antibiotics but cannot remember if we should use an iodine tincture to clean out the mouth or not. Unfortunately information can be conflicting on the internet of what is best to do, and as we don't want to waste any time in getting Pip treated, I know here is the best place to ask!

We have already lost one baby, we think now it was the same thing but there were no visible signs. We had tried intensive hydration through baths and feeding some water via cathetar (as he had stopped eating), not to mention antibiotics. An x-ray showed a lung had collapsed and the other was severely compromised. The rot must have been in the throat beyond our vision, and with NO specialist vets within out local area, there was no chance of it being spotted. As you can imagine, we tried everything and are devestated.

All of this has come on since the hibernation period - this being the babies first time. All the adults seem fine. Another baby also has a swollen joint. Mum suspected gout possibly, as movements are stiff and she has been giving hydratherapy plus his own set of 'wheels' (the funny part, if you can find one in the situation....his name is Rollie) to take the weight off the shell to assist movement. We will be taking him to the vet also in case we have missed something.

Any advice given is always gratefully received!

**egyptiandan64** · 23-05-2010, 01:44 PM

Iodine is very hard on new tissue, so I'd only use it once or twice on the mouth rot.
It almost sounds like your other hatchling had a fungal lung infection. You might want to be giving an antifungal as well as the antibiotics with this hatchling. I'd also look into your hatchling set-up. It maybe to damp in places and growing fungus and the little ones are breathing in the spores.

Danny

Celestite1983 · 23-05-2010, 01:57 PM

Could quite possibly be Dan. We hibernated them in the greenhouse, which normally stays nice and dry, safe from frost (its very deep and is sealed at least a few feet down by blocks and concrete) and for many years they have come out absoulutely fine, but this year we noticed a cracked pane in the corner and a damp patch when we got them out a couple weeks early (when there was the rat problem next door). We had hoped they would be fine, there have been no problems - until this last month!

I'll let mum know about the iodine, is there anything else you or anyone can suggest? Also We are going to check out ALL of them, and take precautionary treatment where neccessary.

Celestite1983 · 24-05-2010, 09:35 AM

Names of meds or anything would be handy, we can see if the local vets stock it then and pass on any treatment suggestions to them.

Thanks!

xxxx

Box girl · 24-05-2010, 04:52 PM

You need a weak solution of betadine and wash the mouth out once daily. Do not worry if not eating and DO NOT TUBE feed you will only push the infection into his gut. Look for secondary signs of illness as Mouth rot is often secondary to something else.
Give daily bath

Celestite1983 · 08-07-2010, 07:23 PM

After losing one baby and curing another, we thought we had beaten the problem.... a little while on and it seems to have reared its head again. The crazy thing is they have been nowhere near anyplace damp since we got them out of hibernation. The outside run and indoor housings have been sterile and clean, food has been the same as it always is so what is causing these problems?

The only thing we can think of is possibly not allowing enough time before re-introducing the cured baby to the other brood (had been a couple weeks and local vet advised Rory was fine to go back in amongst the others). We don't think it is overcrowding, there has been plenty of space and seperation on a daily basis.

Same symptoms present in two babies, one is very bad and we feel might not make it, although we are trying everything with Baytril, baths and cleaning mouth out (definate signs of cheesy-mouth). The lungs are sounding affected.

The smaller baby isn't presenting the visable mouth-rot signs but is wheezing.

Danny - you mentioned anti-fungal. Do you or any others have any recommendations of what to use and how? Local vets here are absolutely useless when it comes to exotic species and apart from issuing Baytril, have no idea how else to treat them. I took Rollie to vet two days running and she INSISTED we had it (sorry, we aren't quite up to the standard of sexing at a young age yet) tube fed. She just went on and on about keeping its strength up to help it fight the infection. True, yes - the stronger the animal the better the chances but I see Box girl specifically said NOT to do this.

Please help if you can - in all these years of mum having tortoises, we have NEVER had a problem as bad as this!

Helen M · 08-07-2010, 07:40 PM

I wonder if anyone would recommend nebulising for this? Hopefully someone more aware will come along.

Helen xx

Celestite1983 · 08-07-2010, 07:46 PM

I tried to aspirate the one that is very serious, unfortunately my mum (she who is older and a bit wiser) was away until lastnight so I have been trying all I can think of up till now. We might just have to bite the bullet and take a trip further down south to a more knowledgeable vet. Sadly there are no real specialists within the local radius. Anyone fancy coming to Cornwall to live and practice?

What would we nebulise with and how?

**egyptiandan64** · 08-07-2010, 07:48 PM

Can you have your vet send out some the the "cheesey" material to be cultured? That would help with figuring out what is going on. It sounds like the Baytril isn't working and you might need to change to a different antibiotic. When I get home I'll look up the antifungal agents for you.

Yes you probably did introduce the sick ones back to the group to quickly. Just like getting new animals, they needed to be quarantined for 4 to 6 months after all signs of infection were gone. That way their immune systems would be back up to par and they most likely would have not been contagious.

Danny

Celestite1983 · 08-07-2010, 07:53 PM

I took the swabs from that morning (from about 10am) to the vets at 12pm and suggested they check it out. She dismissed the idea and said they would be too old by now. (insert expletive)

Oh (insert another expletive) - we should have known about the quarrantine. Nobody to blame but us there, we thought it might have been too early but I must admit, we wouldn't have stretched it out that long so either way we would have messed up!

Feel so bad now :'(

23-05-2010, 10:34 AM	#1
Celestite1983 Member Egg Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Cornwall, UK Posts: 82	Urgent Help needed - MOUTHROT! We have a very poorly little baby tortoise, who has developed signs of mouthrot post-hibernation. We did have a book that is excellent for reference but have mislaid it. We are administering antibiotics but cannot remember if we should use an iodine tincture to clean out the mouth or not. Unfortunately information can be conflicting on the internet of what is best to do, and as we don't want to waste any time in getting Pip treated, I know here is the best place to ask! We have already lost one baby, we think now it was the same thing but there were no visible signs. We had tried intensive hydration through baths and feeding some water via cathetar (as he had stopped eating), not to mention antibiotics. An x-ray showed a lung had collapsed and the other was severely compromised. The rot must have been in the throat beyond our vision, and with NO specialist vets within out local area, there was no chance of it being spotted. As you can imagine, we tried everything and are devestated. All of this has come on since the hibernation period - this being the babies first time. All the adults seem fine. Another baby also has a swollen joint. Mum suspected gout possibly, as movements are stiff and she has been giving hydratherapy plus his own set of 'wheels' (the funny part, if you can find one in the situation....his name is Rollie) to take the weight off the shell to assist movement. We will be taking him to the vet also in case we have missed something. Any advice given is always gratefully received!

23-05-2010, 01:44 PM	#2
egyptiandan64 Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 14,171	Iodine is very hard on new tissue, so I'd only use it once or twice on the mouth rot. It almost sounds like your other hatchling had a fungal lung infection. You might want to be giving an antifungal as well as the antibiotics with this hatchling. I'd also look into your hatchling set-up. It maybe to damp in places and growing fungus and the little ones are breathing in the spores. Danny __________________

24-05-2010, 04:52 PM	#5
Box girl Senior Member Sub Adult Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Glos Posts: 1,326	You need a weak solution of betadine and wash the mouth out once daily. Do not worry if not eating and DO NOT TUBE feed you will only push the infection into his gut. Look for secondary signs of illness as Mouth rot is often secondary to something else. Give daily bath __________________ www.ukchelonia.info Money raised to Allwetter Zoo Muenster e6000 sent so far. Have bred-red foots, yellow foots, eastern box, 3 toed box, ornate box, gulf coast box, common musk, elongated tortoise, red eared terrapin, cuora flavomarginata, cuora amboinensis, hermanns tortoise, horsfield tortoise, rhinoclemys.p. manni, european pond turtle, reeves and spurs

08-07-2010, 07:48 PM	#9
egyptiandan64 Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 14,171	Can you have your vet send out some the the "cheesey" material to be cultured? That would help with figuring out what is going on. It sounds like the Baytril isn't working and you might need to change to a different antibiotic. When I get home I'll look up the antifungal agents for you. Yes you probably did introduce the sick ones back to the group to quickly. Just like getting new animals, they needed to be quarantined for 4 to 6 months after all signs of infection were gone. That way their immune systems would be back up to par and they most likely would have not been contagious. Danny __________________

23-05-2010, 01:57 PM	#3
Celestite1983 Member Egg Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Cornwall, UK Posts: 82	Could quite possibly be Dan. We hibernated them in the greenhouse, which normally stays nice and dry, safe from frost (its very deep and is sealed at least a few feet down by blocks and concrete) and for many years they have come out absoulutely fine, but this year we noticed a cracked pane in the corner and a damp patch when we got them out a couple weeks early (when there was the rat problem next door). We had hoped they would be fine, there have been no problems - until this last month! I'll let mum know about the iodine, is there anything else you or anyone can suggest? Also We are going to check out ALL of them, and take precautionary treatment where neccessary.

24-05-2010, 09:35 AM	#4
Celestite1983 Member Egg Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Cornwall, UK Posts: 82	Names of meds or anything would be handy, we can see if the local vets stock it then and pass on any treatment suggestions to them. Thanks! xxxx

08-07-2010, 07:23 PM	#6
Celestite1983 Member Egg Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Cornwall, UK Posts: 82	After losing one baby and curing another, we thought we had beaten the problem.... a little while on and it seems to have reared its head again. The crazy thing is they have been nowhere near anyplace damp since we got them out of hibernation. The outside run and indoor housings have been sterile and clean, food has been the same as it always is so what is causing these problems? The only thing we can think of is possibly not allowing enough time before re-introducing the cured baby to the other brood (had been a couple weeks and local vet advised Rory was fine to go back in amongst the others). We don't think it is overcrowding, there has been plenty of space and seperation on a daily basis. Same symptoms present in two babies, one is very bad and we feel might not make it, although we are trying everything with Baytril, baths and cleaning mouth out (definate signs of cheesy-mouth). The lungs are sounding affected. The smaller baby isn't presenting the visable mouth-rot signs but is wheezing. Danny - you mentioned anti-fungal. Do you or any others have any recommendations of what to use and how? Local vets here are absolutely useless when it comes to exotic species and apart from issuing Baytril, have no idea how else to treat them. I took Rollie to vet two days running and she INSISTED we had it (sorry, we aren't quite up to the standard of sexing at a young age yet) tube fed. She just went on and on about keeping its strength up to help it fight the infection. True, yes - the stronger the animal the better the chances but I see Box girl specifically said NOT to do this. Please help if you can - in all these years of mum having tortoises, we have NEVER had a problem as bad as this!

08-07-2010, 07:40 PM	#7
Helen M Senior Member Adult Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,362	I wonder if anyone would recommend nebulising for this? Hopefully someone more aware will come along. Helen xx

08-07-2010, 07:46 PM	#8
Celestite1983 Member Egg Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Cornwall, UK Posts: 82	I tried to aspirate the one that is very serious, unfortunately my mum (she who is older and a bit wiser) was away until lastnight so I have been trying all I can think of up till now. We might just have to bite the bullet and take a trip further down south to a more knowledgeable vet. Sadly there are no real specialists within the local radius. Anyone fancy coming to Cornwall to live and practice? What would we nebulise with and how?

08-07-2010, 07:53 PM	#10
Celestite1983 Member Egg Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Cornwall, UK Posts: 82	I took the swabs from that morning (from about 10am) to the vets at 12pm and suggested they check it out. She dismissed the idea and said they would be too old by now. (insert expletive) Oh (insert another expletive) - we should have known about the quarrantine. Nobody to blame but us there, we thought it might have been too early but I must admit, we wouldn't have stretched it out that long so either way we would have messed up! Feel so bad now :'(

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