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Old 20-07-2015, 09:12 PM   #21
Hanako
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Maybe you should get them put to sleep so that they aren't suffering
The question is, when do you make such decision? How do I know that it is not caused by something reversible? When is it too early to give up on them and when is it time to let go? The one who opens at least little bit, she definitely has a chance. The other one, I don't know. What if it is something that regular baths will improve? Some gunk stuck inside, may get washed out eventually... The tortoises are not losing weight, at this moment. They are not putting on weight, but they are also only two weeks old. In the nature every tortoise will go through periods when there is less food, some lean times. That's why I don't think that at this time it is the time to give up. Not yet.
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Old 20-07-2015, 10:58 PM   #22
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Maybe a chat with your vet would help Hannah?

There was a person on the forum some years ago who had a tort with this problem her user name was mollbag & the tort Dinky. I don't know the eventual outcome but remember her searching for a long while to find the problem. As soon as I realised Ivory's predicament Dan suggested to me she too might have the same.

The cause of Dinky's problem was diagnosed after an x-ray but she was bigger by then. I don't know if your babies would show on an x-ray - I guess bones are bones but would imagine you would need a vet with a lot of experience of what the jaw should work/look like to interpret the results.

I wouldn't rush into the decision because at their age/size its easy to sustain them using the methods I described.

It would be good if we could get Dan's thoughts on this
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Old 20-07-2015, 11:50 PM   #23
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Maybe a chat with your vet would help Hannah?


I wouldn't rush into the decision because at their age/size its easy to sustain them using the methods I described.

It would be good if we could get Dan's thoughts on this
I agree don't rush into a decision about having them put to sleep, I was getting the feeling from your post that you were finding it quite upsetting to watch them wanting and attempting to feed but unable to, poor things! however a chat with your vet is needed to decide whether to insert a tube or not.
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Old 21-07-2015, 12:31 AM   #24
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I agree don't rush into a decision about having them put to sleep, I was getting the feeling from your post that you were finding it quite upsetting to watch them wanting and attempting to feed but unable to, poor things! however a chat with your vet is needed to decide whether to insert a tube or not.
At the moment I am obviously worried, but I haven't reached the stage of feeling desperate. I still somehow hope that it will either resolve itself, or that they will survive at least a few years and then the vet will have a better chance working on them. But it does make me think how it feels to them to have the food around them, if they are unable to eat. It feels a bit cruel. I know how frustrated I feel when I am on diet, and that's self imposed and at least I have the brain capacity to know the reason, whereas how it feels to animals who don't understand why, and who didn't make the decision not to eat willingly... Maybe I am thinking too much.

I think I won't go through the neck tube feeding. I had another tortoise to have this done and they told me that it was the smallest tortoise they have ever done it to. She was 30 grams. Mine is only third of that. I think a bit on the small side for the surgery. She is size of 20pence.
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Old 21-07-2015, 01:40 AM   #25
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X-rays may help but may not as the tortoises are very young and bones aren't fully formed yet. The vet may be able to open the jaws and get the lower jaws popped back in their sockets if that's the problem. If their is no socket, the only way to give them a chance is a feeding tube eventually. It is possible (at least for the one that can barely open it's jaws) for you to blend weeds and other good foods so it's a paste or watery paste. You'd mix that with the soaking water as well as vitamins and minerals. You'd have to do this at every soak. If the vet can't get the jaws open of the one that has no space, then it would be kinder to have it put down as it just won't make it.

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Old 21-07-2015, 09:06 AM   #26
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X-rays may help but may not as the tortoises are very young and bones aren't fully formed yet. The vet may be able to open the jaws and get the lower jaws popped back in their sockets if that's the problem. If their is no socket, the only way to give them a chance is a feeding tube eventually. It is possible (at least for the one that can barely open it's jaws) for you to blend weeds and other good foods so it's a paste or watery paste. You'd mix that with the soaking water as well as vitamins and minerals. You'd have to do this at every soak. If the vet can't get the jaws open of the one that has no space, then it would be kinder to have it put down as it just won't make it.

Danny
Thank you, Dan. Has any of yours ever had it? What was to outcome? Do you know why it happened? And why two tortoises at the same time have the same or very similar problem, when all the previous ones were ok? It shouldn't be inherited because none of my adults have this problem.
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Old 21-07-2015, 02:59 PM   #27
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Is your male elderly? Or have your females previously been with an old male?
Somebody I know had an old male who seemed to be the cause of some babies born with only one eye or none.
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Old 21-07-2015, 03:38 PM   #28
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These decisions are personal ones. I did have one which was kept alive for a long time through a feed tube. Since the tortoise still wasn't eating by itself I left the feed tube in for many months. Eventually the tube came out and that tortoise declined from that point.

If I was in the position of having to make that decision again I would only go ahead with the operation to insert the feed tube if there was a good prospect of treatment to fix the cause of the problem. Once the tube is in, the tortoise can be kept alive but the question I would ask myself is what I am keeping them alive for.

The vet I use now has a very practical angle on such things. His view is that the keeper has time, money and effort to spend on the animals in total. If the needs of a sickly animal use up all the keeper's resources then this will ultimately be detrimental to the welfare of the others.

So if I was in Hannah's situation I would be asking what the prospects are of either of these little tortoises being able to eat normally in the future.
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Old 21-07-2015, 04:20 PM   #29
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These decisions are personal ones. I did have one which was kept alive for a long time through a feed tube. Since the tortoise still wasn't eating by itself I left the feed tube in for many months. Eventually the tube came out and that tortoise declined from that point.

If I was in the position of having to make that decision again I would only go ahead with the operation to insert the feed tube if there was a good prospect of treatment to fix the cause of the problem. Once the tube is in, the tortoise can be kept alive but the question I would ask myself is what I am keeping them alive for.

The vet I use now has a very practical angle on such things. His view is that the keeper has time, money and effort to spend on the animals in total. If the needs of a sickly animal use up all the keeper's resources then this will ultimately be detrimental to the welfare of the others.

So if I was in Hannah's situation I would be asking what the prospects are of either of these little tortoises being able to eat normally in the future.

I also tend to let nature take its course in these situations. Keeping tortoises alive rather than to thrive is not a good idea. Eventually nature will take its course anyway.
Of course you have to give it some time as things can get better, but you have to use common sense also in these things. There is no right or wrong, it just is.
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Old 21-07-2015, 05:39 PM   #30
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I was willing to pay a £500 bill a few weeks back for my own but the chance of it coming out and being back to normal was very high so I had to do it although it came to no way near that.

If I had a tortoise that was deformed and had no chance of a normal living life like this and on a vets say so I would have them put to sleep as I wouldnt want them to suffer.

It sounds cruel and I hate saying it like that but its the way I would go.

If their is a chance that it can be put right then yes I would try my very best for it. Its a hard one to call and no one can really advise you on that decision.

But I feel for you in this situation.
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