Just curious

Hanako · 23-02-2014, 10:12 PM

If someone gets a tortoise (perhaps as a gift) without the necessary paperwork (DEFRA certificate), is there anything the person can do to use the tortoise for breeding? I read recently on the facebook that someone got THH as a gift without papers, but he contacted DEFRA and will be able to breed from him because he will get "a breeding certificate" for him. How is that possible? In such case, the value of the certificates is zero, because anyone who would in theory could catch the tortoise in the nature instead of breed it in captivity would be able to get certificates for it. So why are we bothering with certificates if anyone can get them?

**egyptiandan64** · 23-02-2014, 10:16 PM

Certificates are really to keep under control profiting from a species. With a breeding only certificate you can get paperwork for hatchlings but can never sell the adult/s with a breeding only certificate.

Danny

Hanako · 23-02-2014, 10:35 PM

So if you, in theory, caught a male in the nature and bread from him, all your breeding business will be legal, you just can't sell the one you caught? That seems to me ridiculous. I thought the paperwork was there to protect the animals in the nature, so that people had only the animals that were born in captivity, but those that are in the nature could not be "caught and enslaved". How can one breed from an animal that does not have paperwork?

Ozric Jonathan · 23-02-2014, 10:46 PM

I believe there are quite a few tortoises which people have had for a long time but they can't prove were bred in captivity. Sometimes this is because the tortoise was not in fact bred in captivity at all and sometimes it is a captive bred tortoise with no papers.

From one point of view, it makes sense to allow such tortoises to be used for breeding because they are there in captivity anyway and might as well be bred from. I understand that DEFRA do make some demands in respect of the origin of the tortoise before issueing these certifictes.

There are any number of weaknesses in the system with regard to hatchlings. If no breeding certificates were issued, there would be no end of hatchlings supposedly born to certain parent tortoises for example.

**egyptiandan64** · 23-02-2014, 10:50 PM

Breeding is the easy part as the tortoise doesn't care whether it has papers or not.
If your good enough to fake a history of being in the UK for a long period of time, than yes you could get paper work to make your tortoise quasi legal in the eyes of DEFRA.
I don't think the paper work has much to do with saving animals in the wild (though banning imports from the wild most likely did). It's a flawed way for the goverment to keep track of animals that were already imported into the country (when it was legal to do) and ones that are coming in from farms now.

Danny

becciwales · 23-02-2014, 10:53 PM

There was no need for certs years ago, if my mums had survived, they'd be about 50-60 now, but she never had paperwork, I suppose they have to allow for these circumstances. They could still be breeding now (I think) so would need some kind of certificate.

Andy Robertson · 24-02-2014, 07:14 AM

Hanako, you should contact DEFRA and ask them, I've heard stories of people struggling to get papers for tortoises that don't have them, if this were the case then anyone that has a tortoise with no papers could just say they were going to use them to breed?????
I don't think this is true, but let me know of I am wrong?
Andy

sandy · 24-02-2014, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanako

So if you, in theory, caught a male in the nature and bread from him, all your breeding business will be legal, you just can't sell the one you caught? That seems to me ridiculous. I thought the paperwork was there to protect the animals in the nature, so that people had only the animals that were born in captivity, but those that are in the nature could not be "caught and enslaved". How can one breed from an animal that does not have paperwork?

How do you think some of the FARMS started?
It makes you wonder doesn't it:0)

becciwales · 24-02-2014, 11:25 AM

How do you think torts came to be in captivity in the 1st place??

Ozric Jonathan · 24-02-2014, 12:47 PM

Probably none of us that keep tortoises can claim to be comlpetely free of any connection to wild caught animals.

For me it is relevant that the main threat to most species is habitat loss. And habitat loss is still going on here in Europe despite the knowledge that exists and the relative wealth in this part of the world.

23-02-2014, 10:12 PM	#1
Hanako Member Hatchling Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 690	Just curious If someone gets a tortoise (perhaps as a gift) without the necessary paperwork (DEFRA certificate), is there anything the person can do to use the tortoise for breeding? I read recently on the facebook that someone got THH as a gift without papers, but he contacted DEFRA and will be able to breed from him because he will get "a breeding certificate" for him. How is that possible? In such case, the value of the certificates is zero, because anyone who would in theory could catch the tortoise in the nature instead of breed it in captivity would be able to get certificates for it. So why are we bothering with certificates if anyone can get them?

23-02-2014, 10:16 PM	#2
egyptiandan64 Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 14,171	Certificates are really to keep under control profiting from a species. With a breeding only certificate you can get paperwork for hatchlings but can never sell the adult/s with a breeding only certificate. Danny __________________

23-02-2014, 10:46 PM	#4
Ozric Jonathan Senior Member Adult Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: West of Scotland Posts: 4,226	I believe there are quite a few tortoises which people have had for a long time but they can't prove were bred in captivity. Sometimes this is because the tortoise was not in fact bred in captivity at all and sometimes it is a captive bred tortoise with no papers. From one point of view, it makes sense to allow such tortoises to be used for breeding because they are there in captivity anyway and might as well be bred from. I understand that DEFRA do make some demands in respect of the origin of the tortoise before issueing these certifictes. There are any number of weaknesses in the system with regard to hatchlings. If no breeding certificates were issued, there would be no end of hatchlings supposedly born to certain parent tortoises for example. __________________ Testudo Hermanni Hermanni (Corse) tortoises

23-02-2014, 10:50 PM	#5
egyptiandan64 Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 14,171	Breeding is the easy part as the tortoise doesn't care whether it has papers or not. If your good enough to fake a history of being in the UK for a long period of time, than yes you could get paper work to make your tortoise quasi legal in the eyes of DEFRA. I don't think the paper work has much to do with saving animals in the wild (though banning imports from the wild most likely did). It's a flawed way for the goverment to keep track of animals that were already imported into the country (when it was legal to do) and ones that are coming in from farms now. Danny __________________

23-02-2014, 10:53 PM	#6
becciwales Senior Member Adult Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: South Wales Posts: 3,438	There was no need for certs years ago, if my mums had survived, they'd be about 50-60 now, but she never had paperwork, I suppose they have to allow for these circumstances. They could still be breeding now (I think) so would need some kind of certificate. __________________ Becci 1:2:0 Testudo Hermanni Boettgeri - Darwin, Galileo, and Einstein. Archimedes (THB) RIP June, 2018

23-02-2014, 10:35 PM	#3
Hanako Member Hatchling Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 690	So if you, in theory, caught a male in the nature and bread from him, all your breeding business will be legal, you just can't sell the one you caught? That seems to me ridiculous. I thought the paperwork was there to protect the animals in the nature, so that people had only the animals that were born in captivity, but those that are in the nature could not be "caught and enslaved". How can one breed from an animal that does not have paperwork?

24-02-2014, 07:14 AM	#7
Andy Robertson Member Hatched Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Aberdeen Posts: 339	Hanako, you should contact DEFRA and ask them, I've heard stories of people struggling to get papers for tortoises that don't have them, if this were the case then anyone that has a tortoise with no papers could just say they were going to use them to breed????? I don't think this is true, but let me know of I am wrong? Andy

24-02-2014, 11:25 AM	#9
becciwales Senior Member Adult Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: South Wales Posts: 3,438	How do you think torts came to be in captivity in the 1st place?? __________________ Becci 1:2:0 Testudo Hermanni Boettgeri - Darwin, Galileo, and Einstein. Archimedes (THB) RIP June, 2018

24-02-2014, 12:47 PM	#10
Ozric Jonathan Senior Member Adult Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: West of Scotland Posts: 4,226	Probably none of us that keep tortoises can claim to be comlpetely free of any connection to wild caught animals. For me it is relevant that the main threat to most species is habitat loss. And habitat loss is still going on here in Europe despite the knowledge that exists and the relative wealth in this part of the world. __________________ Testudo Hermanni Hermanni (Corse) tortoises

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