cb 2015 Testudo Hermanni Hermanni

[CherryBrandy]

Originally Posted by 4chester

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...cal_demography

Some light reading

Cor that's blooming brilliant. I don't profess to understand it all but was thinking I need a visual on this to put it into context and up it popped. I really liked the extinction vortex page..., what a great name for a band. Thanks for this, there is no end of interest in Tortoises history.

One of my favourite books is The sheltered life... CB

[burnt toast]

I spoke to Chris Leonne with regards to checking some of mine and he categorically said without DNA it would just be a guess. I expect ID can also be scewed by whether the tort is well grown or not.

[Hanako]

So did I. I was curious about those few that I don't know where they are from and he told me the same. That's why the localities are not really subspecies. Because there is no way to find out (unless every keeper would be doing DNA tests). That's why I am a bit amazed how people here are so sure that they 'know' what locality they have. Unless you personally went to that locality and caught the tortoise there, you can't know for sure. You know what the person who sold it to you told you. The person could have acted in good faith but be wrong, or the previous person who sold the tortoise/the tortoises parents to this person could have been wrong... There we're a number of people involved with the tortoises we have now - someone had to breed the parents, and the parents of the parents, and generation after generation. So much about those posters who are proclaiming that their tortoises are 'pure'...

[Suze65]

I understand it might be difficult to identify each locality by just characteristics, but if you do the DNA tests and they show differences in their DNA, surely that must suggest a subspecies. If I am wrong I appologise, but to my way of thinking, their different localities and possibly different DNA = different subspecies. It is only my thoughts, I have a keen interest to debate these things and gain knowledge.

[Suze65]

Originally Posted by 4chester

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...cal_demography

Some light reading

I have enjoyed reading this

[Hanako]

Originally Posted by Suze65

I understand it might be difficult to identify each locality by just characteristics, but if you do the DNA tests and they show differences in their DNA, surely that must suggest a subspecies. If I am wrong I appologise, but to my way of thinking, their different localities and possibly different DNA = different subspecies. It is only my thoughts, I have a keen interest to debate these things and gain knowledge.

I think you are wrong. No taxonomists will ever recognise subspecies that are not recognisable by human eye, and are recognisable only by doing DNA. So in fact, you are trying to be even more expert than the people who are actually experts, without you being able to recognise the locality of the tortoises yourself. Maybe it is a time you to get off your high horse and stop calling my tortoises cross! It seems to me that everyone here has a very strong opinion about things that are not necessary in their expertise. But never mind, some posters have the opinion nevertheless. No matter what the experts thinks, some people think that it matters what THEY think. Whatever.

[Hanako]

Originally Posted by Suze65

if you do the DNA tests and they show differences in their DNA, surely that must suggest a subspecies.

If you go into enough details, every single tortoise will have different DNA than any other tortoise, even if they are of the same species and subspecies. DNA is individual, like with people. (That's why you can do DNA tests who the father is or DNA tests on crime scenes. ) So your reasoning - difference in DNA meaning different subspecies - would be quite hard to sustain. You would have as many subspecies as you have tortoises.

[Suze65]

Originally Posted by Hanako

I think you are wrong. No taxonomists will ever recognise subspecies that are not recognisable by human eye, and are recognisable only by doing DNA. So in fact, you are trying to be even more expert than the people who are actually experts, without you being able to recognise the locality of the tortoises yourself. Maybe it is a time you to get off your high horse and stop calling my tortoises cross! It seems to me that everyone here has a very strong opinion about things that are not necessary in their expertise. But never mind, some posters have the opinion nevertheless. No matter what the experts thinks, some people think that it matters what THEY think. Whatever.

I'm sorry you have taken my apology that way, it was genuine, I'm not the sort to get on my high horse. This is a forum , where we sometimes have debates, and sometimes we just give our thoughts on a subject, not claiming to be an expert, sometimes opinions are strong. It's an interesting subject, that's all !

[Hanako]

I have nothing against a discussion, but if you read this thread, I have been accused by Gordon of mixing anything to get the money, my beautiful babies have been called cross (even though nothing that is at this moment scientifically proven justify calling them cross because localities ARE NOT recognised as subspecies!!!), you compared mixing localities to mixing Boetgerri with Hermanni and with Herc., Gordon suggested (by PM) that if I post the photos of the parents, maybe we will see that they actually are from the same locality (when even such experts like Chris are cautioning that it is impossible to recognise from just looking at them)... I am sorry, but what the heck is going on here? So many 'experts' with so many opinions, and none of them real expert. The egos of some people are just unbelievable!

[emma_mcraf]

I wouldn't say that there's currently anyone on this forum who would claim they were an expert. However there are plenty who have a lot of experience and a deep interest in certain sub-species, so localities are of particular interest to them and therefore their background knowledge is fairly good and they are able to 'advise' rather than state what they think.

As Suze says, a healthy debate is always good and very interesting, especially for someone like myself who keeps Hermanns but knows very little about THH. I know that cross-breeding Hercs and THB's isn't ideal but it happens and sometimes people are none the wiser. Likewise I presume where possible breeding THH of particular localities is favourable.

There's been a bit of mud-slinging going on and I think the thread has lost its way and come off track. I don't think there are inflated egos here - just many who are passionate about tortoise husbandry and breeding.

I for one would love to see photos of your adults. Not because I'd have a clue where they were from but it's always lovely to see THH and any photos posted by Jonathan or anyone else with THH is such a treat for someone like me to see.