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Old 07-01-2010, 07:46 PM   #21
EJ
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...and before the last Ice Age????... I'm hoping you're not thinking that is were time started or that these tortoises did not exist before that Ice Age. They probably did not move into but back to those areas. If global warming continues it wouldn't be a stretch to think they would expand their range which is another hint that temperature is a major controlling factor in their movement... I'll get back to you in the next 15'000 years.

To my last line... any good reference to any 'fact' in biology should always have wiggle room. Probability is the best you are going to do in biology... this is why every good reference paper that is trying to prove something is going to have the statistical data to back it up.

There is always going to be that odd individual that refuses to get with the program and that individual either adapts... or... dies out.

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Most european tortoises would not have exhisted where they do now 15,000 years ago as europe was pretty much covered in Ice, why move into these ares after ice receeded if the conditions found there are unfavourable?

Also you say probably wouldn't hibernate, thats not a stone cold fact, its opinion.
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:47 PM   #22
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you can certainly try to not hibernate your tort but there might well become a time when despite all your heat/light and good intentions your tort decides to hibernate himself. Then you won't have a lot of choice in the matter as many of us find, my adult Ibera stop eating at the end of september and appear less and less and it makes no difference how much light or heat they have, if I wanted them to stay up I could have a dead tortoise at the end of the winter if i couldn't get them to eat and I'm not the only one who has the choice taken from them so next year or the year after when your on here asking for last minute help and haven't prepared think back to this post. Ej's 'optimum' conditions which he can provide to prevent his from hibernating may be easy for him but sometimes near impossible for many of us.
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:48 PM   #23
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i cant belive your fish are still feeding, it must be a tad warmer there

i was using fish as a example of creatures that will hibernate if they have to, giving them a better chance of surviving
they wont if its warm and have food - they will if its cold and have no food -
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:52 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pussygalore View Post
you can certainly try to not hibernate your tort but there might well become a time when despite all your heat/light and good intentions your tort decides to hibernate himself. Then you won't have a lot of choice in the matter as many of us find, my adult Ibera stop eating at the end of september and appear less and less and it makes no difference how much light or heat they have, if I wanted them to stay up I could have a dead tortoise at the end of the winter if i couldn't get them to eat and I'm not the only one who has the choice taken from them so next year or the year after when your on here asking for last minute help and haven't prepared think back to this post. Ej's 'optimum' conditions which he can provide to prevent his from hibernating may be easy for him but sometimes near impossible for many of us.
i dont find it hard, and i have been doing it a long time
i will admit, you need room/money/time
and yes sometimes its very tempting to "put them away" for a couple of months, but the only reasons i can ever find, would be convience
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:56 PM   #25
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Yes they may well have moved back into these areas, but why if more favourable conditions exhisted where they already were? There must have been a survival reason for that.

As for temp controlling movement, quite agree, they will probably move to more notherly lattitudes, as will other species, but why move north if the conditions in there present range have become more favourable?

I quite agree with Data to back things up, hence my first post, We have no facts just opinions, as no satistical studies have been carried out in this area.

Hence the OP should listen to opinions, and then make their own mind up, but you classed that as misleading.
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:00 PM   #26
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It's as close to a fact as you can get in biology. You can spin it anyway you like.

So... you are saying that there are no facts in behavioral biology.

For you to assume that this disagreement is limited to keepers is pretty ignorant. There are many biologist, conservationists, ecologists... who do not agree on this point one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by swad1000 View Post
So now your stone cold fact, is an assumption and stretch. Again not what the OP asked for.

THe fact is there aren't any facts on this, it is purely opinion by keepers.
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:01 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tartaruga amore View Post
i cant belive your fish are still feeding, it must be a tad warmer there

i was using fish as a example of creatures that will hibernate if they have to, giving them a better chance of surviving
they wont if its warm and have food - they will if its cold and have no food -
Some fish, some will just die, and some species from cold climates will die if moved to warmer climates. And some arctic fish stay active in sub zero temps.

All that shows is different species have different survival techniques, but they have all addapted there own technique.

Now along comes man and decides to use the technique that suits him, not that species.
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:04 PM   #28
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Quote:
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It's as close to a fact as you can get in biology. You can spin it anyway you like.

So... you are saying that there are no facts in behavioral biology.

For you to assume that this disagreement is limited to keepers is pretty ignorant. There are many biologist, conservationists, ecologists... who do not agree on this point one way or the other.
I haven't said there aren't any facts in behavioral biology, we are discussing a single species, and the facts that relate to that species.

And I have no doubt the disagreement goes wider than just keepers, but this site was aimed at keepers, rather then the scientific community.
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:08 PM   #29
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Do you notice that more and more people are getting a grasp of the idea?

I wonder why is that?

I suspect it is because the topic is brought up time and again... usually by a new keeper... and others tend to rethink the discussion rather than follow unsubstantiated advice.

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Do we have to do this again???
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:12 PM   #30
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My methods are not a matter of technique but a matter of understanding the behavior and physiology of the animals I have an interest in.

This is not some WAG. There is a good amount of information both in the wild and in captivity to support this idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swad1000 View Post
Some fish, some will just die, and some species from cold climates will die if moved to warmer climates. And some arctic fish stay active in sub zero temps.

All that shows is different species have different survival techniques, but they have all addapted there own technique.

Now along comes man and decides to use the technique that suits him, not that species.
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