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Old 16-03-2016, 04:35 PM   #51
Hanako
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I agree that healthy debate is always good, but as you said, there has been a bit of mud-slinging going on. (In fact, I would say not 'a bit' but 'quite a lot' mud slinging, if we want to be more accurate.) I can understand that some people are interested in localities, I am interested myself, but then again I wouldn't call anyone's tortoises cross without any proper reason for it. I have NEVER crossbred THH with THHerc or with THB, so I don't think this was deserved. Going on a thread where someone is selling something, and trying to put down the object of the sale without having any scientific proof behind their claim, surely that's not right. Isn't that slander? If I was selling the tortoises as a business, I would sue them for causing me damage. At the moment as I said, I am not selling the tortoises because of the money, and therefore I am only VERY, VERY angry about this because I don't think my tortoises deserve this! There is a huge difference in saying 'it's a pity you don't know their background, I prefer knowing because I am interested in localities' and between accusing someone for breeding cross and saying that they would breed anything to get the money. Surely you can see the difference? The line has been crossed I think.

In regards to the photos, I am sure you can understand that after being treated this way, I have no intention whatsoever to share any photos at all. What fault would 'some posters' find with my poor tortoise? Too big, too small, too wide, too narrow, too black, too yellow, too tall, her head is too big, her head is too small or whatever else. No, thanks. If you look at the tortoises I have posted in the past, my tortoises have relatively smooth shell, I am looking after them well, and all this mud slinging about me breeding cross was VERY hurtful.

Last edited by Hanako; 16-03-2016 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 16-03-2016, 05:02 PM   #52
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You really seem to be missing the point don't you.
If and I say if you had said that both your male and female were from the same area I personally would of been interested in buying some off you but as you weren't prepared to say me and other people were curious as to where they were from. And for this reason this is why people have got worked up to the point they are now.
I have several thh groups and they are as pure as you can get and that is what a lot of breeders want the general public are most of the time not aware of how many different types of hermans there are and would be quite happy to buy a tortoise with no idea as to what it is.
So what I am saying and others are we need to breed tortoises with care as we are supposed to be responsible breeders not just people who have a male and female hermans type and let them breed to me that is totally irresponsible.
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Old 16-03-2016, 05:20 PM   #53
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These tortoises are pets. They are not going to Corsica or Puglia to affect the gene pool. They will stay in the house, shed and garden of whoever buys them in the UK.

So does it really matter so much if they are not from a specific locality? I don't believe it does.

I'm saying this from the point of view of having spent years looking for more Corse hermannis to partner the two I got in the first place. I believe what the breeders told me and I did question them closely. But can I prove they are Corsican? No I can't because there isn't any meaningful test.

Now I don't know Hanako at all but I do know that Hanako has been on a mission for years looking for hermannis. I can identify with that.

The localities are definitely not subspecies and I think that suggestion was misleading or just a plain mistake.

I repeat - these aniamls are pets. Hanako is not putting them into a breeding programme to put stock into empty habitats.
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Old 16-03-2016, 05:40 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Ozric Jonathan View Post
These tortoises are pets. They are not going to Corsica or Puglia to affect the gene pool. They will stay in the house, shed and garden of whoever buys them in the UK.

So does it really matter so much if they are not from a specific locality? I don't believe it does.

I'm saying this from the point of view of having spent years looking for more Corse hermannis to partner the two I got in the first place. I believe what the breeders told me and I did question them closely. But can I prove they are Corsican? No I can't because there isn't any meaningful test.

Now I don't know Hanako at all but I do know that Hanako has been on a mission for years looking for hermannis. I can identify with that.

The localities are definitely not subspecies and I think that suggestion was misleading or just a plain mistake.

I repeat - these aniamls are pets. Hanako is not putting them into a breeding programme to put stock into empty habitats.
So if you found out yours weren't what you were told you would be ok with that.
It makes no difference you saying they are pets they all are pets aren't they at the end of the day.
We still need to be responsible breeder and it makes no difference as to whether we are in the uk or outer Mongolia we still need to try our best to keep sub species and localities as pure as possible
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Old 16-03-2016, 06:38 PM   #55
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Where are all the adverts on here or anywhere else for Horsfields and Boetgerri from different localities?

I can't find any and I don't see anyone objecting.
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Old 16-03-2016, 06:48 PM   #56
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I agree with what you are saying and I think it's because people are not aware that there are three different horsfields and to be honest I think the way they are farmed you would struggle to find pure ones unless taken from the wild and the same with hermans and hercs people just don't know.
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Old 16-03-2016, 07:22 PM   #57
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You really seem to be missing the point don't you.
If and I say if you had said that both your male and female were from the same area I personally would of been interested in buying some off you but as you weren't prepared to say me and other people were curious as to where they were from.
Gordon, I am sorry but I would not sell you any of my tortoises even if you were offering me a fortune for them. I am not oversensitive, but this is already second or third thread where you treated me like some bully. You may not have meant it, but it may be a good idea if you read your posts several times before you post them. Because you do seem to have some problem when responding to me and it is becoming increasingly difficult not to take it personally. Look through this thread, I have been very calm and polite, but my patience finally run out and I feel I have to say it.
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Old 16-03-2016, 07:55 PM   #58
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http://www.studbooks.eu/index.php?op...=98&Itemid=279

http://www.studbooks.eu/index.php?op...244&Itemid=343

Some bedtime reading to demonstrate that people are looking to try and maintain localities and sub populations of various Chelonia and have been working to support reintroduction of captive bred animals to their natural environment

Some background on the genetic criteria to be able to do this http://www.studbooks.eu/index.php?op...171&Itemid=304

It's worth supporting the studbook and the European TSA http://www.turtlesurvival.eu/

Without this a lot of these animals will die out in the wild

Enjoy peeps

Just to add I do have a small group of THB (from Macedonia ) which have a very yellow shell colour and I'm lead to believe that THB from that locale don't grow as big. But that's another story ��

Last edited by 4chester; 16-03-2016 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 16-03-2016, 08:00 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Hanako View Post
Gordon, I am sorry but I would not sell you any of my tortoises even if you were offering me a fortune for them. I am not oversensitive, but this is already second or third thread where you treated me like some bully. You may not have meant it, but it may be a good idea if you read your posts several times before you post them. Because you do seem to have some problem when responding to me and it is becoming increasingly difficult not to take it personally. Look through this thread, I have been very calm and polite, but my patience finally run out and I feel I have to say it.
That's entirely your choice and I certainly wouldn't sell you any of mine as you seem unable to take advice from anybody time and time again you have been offered it but you know best all YOU have done is made this post into a childish argument.
As for me being a bully again that's your opinion and that's fine but I'm sure there are a hell of a lot of people who would say different so all I can say is I hope you find a nice home for all your babies I'm sure you will manage to sell them with no problems.
And that's me done wasting any more time on you.xxx
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Old 16-03-2016, 08:49 PM   #60
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[IMG][/IMG]
Just thought it would be nice to go back to the original photograph posted and all enjoy seeing these wonderful little torts again.
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