14-03-2016, 02:51 PM | #31 | |
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[QUOTE=Ozric Jonathan;663426]"
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So what you are saying is if I put my majorcan male in with my female tuscans that's ok. |
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14-03-2016, 04:04 PM | #32 |
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Chris L has 9 different subspecies of THH, or another way of putting it from different localities. They are all very slightly different, so they have evolved to be slightly different. It's similar to the North African spur complex issue, there are so many subspecies, that they can't classify them all, but they are subspecies of subspecies .
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14-03-2016, 04:24 PM | #33 |
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A definition of subspecies http://www.definitions.net/definition/subspecies
I would say this is true of the THH, they can cross breed in captivity, but they don t in the wild because of their geographical isolation to each other , thus they have evolved to be slightly different .
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Suze. 3 THB, Sammy, Jemima, & Phoebe 7 Marginated, Tabitha, Ptolome, Tatiana, Noah,Lottey, Lulu & Poppy 1 TGG (Emma) RIP Feb 2012 Last edited by Suze65; 14-03-2016 at 04:28 PM. |
14-03-2016, 04:49 PM | #34 | |
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Which leads us to the matter why localities are NOT recognised as subspecies. Because they do not have enough differences to be able to distinguish them with certainty just by seeing them, and because even within each locality there are variations (not all tortoises within the locality have exactly the same features that would safely distinguish them from other localities. Some features seem to overlap, and the tortoise could in theory belong to several localities, if you were trying to classify her based on her appearance). For example, Chris says that the majority (but not all!) tortoises of certain locality have this or that feature, and that tortoise from three localities may have another feature. Some features are common for several localities, for example gular moustache. Tortoises from Sicily and Corsica appear to be larger, but then again you can find larger tortoise from any locality... The experts can't even agree about how many subspecies Testudo Hermanni has. Are there two or three? Some of them find it hard to distinguish them and on official paperwork there is not even recorded what subspecies one has. There is only Testudo Hermanni. So while I can see that you want to keep the localities as they are, i dont believe it is as important as you consider it. If it was that important, wouldn't it be on the paperwork? Last edited by Hanako; 14-03-2016 at 05:01 PM. |
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14-03-2016, 05:46 PM | #35 | |
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As for selling them for £130 I actually sell them for less no idea where you get your prices from but I can buy pure bred thh a lot less than £100 and I have in the past given babies way but that's not the thing we are debating is it we are saying it's not the done thing to cross two tortoises of unknown origin. |
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14-03-2016, 05:48 PM | #36 |
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Just to add Chris L has been a player in building up a DNA database for THH locales and I'm aware that there will be a report later on in the year which will support the North American stud book.
Whilst it's not for everyone, I'm happy to support the different localities and you can see the difference between the 2 groups I have in both head shape, shell shape and skin colouring. Lovely little critters Mark |
14-03-2016, 06:00 PM | #37 |
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I support the localities and I am doing my wee bit with that.
But I don't think it's a terrible crime to breed hermanni hermanni from different localities if that's your only option and people buying are aware. Does any of this kind of thing happen with Boetgerri, or are they all the same? I'm interested to find out as I don't know. It never seems to be spoken about. Is the range of that tortoise just one big land mass?
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14-03-2016, 06:17 PM | #38 | |
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Regarding the prices, £170 I quoted is actually the price the recommended breeder from this forum is selling them for (and Wilton's pets shop was selling them for that price too). Yes, surely you can get it cheaper, if you go to Germany. There you can get it for some 70-80 euros, but you still have to pay the journey etc. There is also one breeder from Germany who regularly travels here and can bring you some if you order it from him, but if you want UK bread tortoise, no one will sell them to you for that price. |
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14-03-2016, 06:18 PM | #39 |
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14-03-2016, 06:20 PM | #40 |
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Thanks Mark I will check that out.
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