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Old 14-03-2016, 02:51 PM   #31
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[QUOTE=Ozric Jonathan;663426]"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanako View Post
I absolutely agree that one shouldn't mix THH, THB and THHerc. However, I disagree that two THH are different subspecies if they are from different localities. Species is Testudo Hermanni, subspecies is Hermanni versus Boetgerri versus Herc., but the subspecies are not divided into further and further subspecies. There is no single study that would call different locality a different subspecies. They are differences between localities, but not such differences that one could call it different subspecies. " ]


I agree totally with Hanako here.

Also the babies will probably be snapped up by eager keepers and in my opinion that's not a bad thing. They know what they are getting after all.
Jonathan how the heck can you agree with it they are not pure and who ever buys them won't be told different will they as the person selling the has no clue as to where the parents are from.
So what you are saying is if I put my majorcan male in with my female tuscans that's ok.
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Old 14-03-2016, 04:04 PM   #32
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Chris L has 9 different subspecies of THH, or another way of putting it from different localities. They are all very slightly different, so they have evolved to be slightly different. It's similar to the North African spur complex issue, there are so many subspecies, that they can't classify them all, but they are subspecies of subspecies .
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Old 14-03-2016, 04:24 PM   #33
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A definition of subspecies http://www.definitions.net/definition/subspecies
I would say this is true of the THH, they can cross breed in captivity, but they don t in the wild because of their geographical isolation to each other , thus they have evolved to be slightly different .
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Old 14-03-2016, 04:49 PM   #34
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Thank you for enclosing the definition of the subspecies. Unfortunately, even though Chris L has 9 different localities, he is quite open that unless you know where exactly the tortoise is from, it can be very hard to recognise (even by such an expert as Chris is) the locality. If you send him a picture of your tortoise, he will offer an opinion, but he will make it clear that it may or may not be correct, and he may name three or four different localities that the tortoise may be from.
Which leads us to the matter why localities are NOT recognised as subspecies. Because they do not have enough differences to be able to distinguish them with certainty just by seeing them, and because even within each locality there are variations (not all tortoises within the locality have exactly the same features that would safely distinguish them from other localities. Some features seem to overlap, and the tortoise could in theory belong to several localities, if you were trying to classify her based on her appearance). For example, Chris says that the majority (but not all!) tortoises of certain locality have this or that feature, and that tortoise from three localities may have another feature. Some features are common for several localities, for example gular moustache. Tortoises from Sicily and Corsica appear to be larger, but then again you can find larger tortoise from any locality...

The experts can't even agree about how many subspecies Testudo Hermanni has. Are there two or three? Some of them find it hard to distinguish them and on official paperwork there is not even recorded what subspecies one has. There is only Testudo Hermanni. So while I can see that you want to keep the localities as they are, i dont believe it is as important as you consider it. If it was that important, wouldn't it be on the paperwork?

Last edited by Hanako; 14-03-2016 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 14-03-2016, 05:46 PM   #35
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Just wanted to clarify, I didn't start breeding to get babies to sell. In fact, if you look through this forum, you may find the thread where I was shocked that a female laid the eggs; I didn't expect it so I didn't have anything ready.

Yes, I do think that it is ok to breed two tortoises from a different locality. I don't think it is ok to crossbreed between species and subspecies, but from the reasons I wrote in my previous post I can't see anything wrong between breeding between different localities. It's a matter of personal opinion and not everyone's opinion may be the same as yours.

I am definitely not breeding the tortoises for the money. If you notice, I am selling them at much lower price than it would be from other breeders or from the shop. The reason is because I want to have a control to whom I sell them. If I was breeding them for money, I wouldn't sell THH baby for £130, I would sell it for £160-170, which is the current price between the breeders in the UK and in the shop. The reason I sell them is because my girls are breeding and I can't keep them all. I have already doubled the amount of tortoises I wanted to have, and as more eggs are being laid, I can either get another house and move all the tortoises there, or I will have to say goodbye to some of them. Quite honestly, I wish they wouldn't be breeding. But I don't have the heart not to incubate the eggs if they have already laid them. They make such an effort and I should bin in? I can't do that! But it is a bit offensive when you suggest that I am breeding them for the money. Are you selling yours for £130?
It's all beyond me you say you didn't start breeding to sell babies so why are you doing it if I kept and hatched every egg I get in a year I would literally have hundreds of babies so I do throw eggs away which I do struggle with but it's for the best.
As for selling them for £130 I actually sell them for less no idea where you get your prices from but I can buy pure bred thh a lot less than £100 and I have in the past given babies way but that's not the thing we are debating is it we are saying it's not the done thing to cross two tortoises of unknown origin.
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Old 14-03-2016, 05:48 PM   #36
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Just to add Chris L has been a player in building up a DNA database for THH locales and I'm aware that there will be a report later on in the year which will support the North American stud book.

Whilst it's not for everyone, I'm happy to support the different localities and you can see the difference between the 2 groups I have in both head shape, shell shape and skin colouring.

Lovely little critters

Mark
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Old 14-03-2016, 06:00 PM   #37
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I support the localities and I am doing my wee bit with that.

But I don't think it's a terrible crime to breed hermanni hermanni from different localities if that's your only option and people buying are aware.

Does any of this kind of thing happen with Boetgerri, or are they all the same? I'm interested to find out as I don't know. It never seems to be spoken about. Is the range of that tortoise just one big land mass?
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Old 14-03-2016, 06:17 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon View Post
It's all beyond me you say you didn't start breeding to sell babies so why are you doing it if I kept and hatched every egg I get in a year I would literally have hundreds of babies so I do throw eggs away which I do struggle with but it's for the best.
As for selling them for £130 I actually sell them for less no idea where you get your prices from but I can buy pure bred thh a lot less than £100 and I have in the past given babies way but that's not the thing we are debating is it we are saying it's not the done thing to cross two tortoises of unknown origin.
Why I am doing it? I thought I explained it in my post. If there was any form of contraception for them which would not be permanent, I would use it! But unfortunately separating them does not seem to work (the sperm is already in them and if I understand correctly, they can use it over a year!). They keep laying, and I won't bin any egg they laid. There is not enough THH around so that I can waste their effort like that.

Regarding the prices, £170 I quoted is actually the price the recommended breeder from this forum is selling them for (and Wilton's pets shop was selling them for that price too). Yes, surely you can get it cheaper, if you go to Germany. There you can get it for some 70-80 euros, but you still have to pay the journey etc. There is also one breeder from Germany who regularly travels here and can bring you some if you order it from him, but if you want UK bread tortoise, no one will sell them to you for that price.
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Old 14-03-2016, 06:18 PM   #39
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https://www.researchgate.net/publica...cal_demography

Some light reading
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Old 14-03-2016, 06:20 PM   #40
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Thanks Mark I will check that out.
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