Shelled Warriors Forums
 

Go Back   Shelled Warriors Forums > Shelled Warriors Shop, Classifieds and Rehoming > Classifieds > For Sale

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 14-03-2016, 12:28 PM   #21
Suze65
Senior Member
Adult
 
Suze65's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 6,769
Default

If they are from different localities they are different subspecies, and so you are cross breeding, which is a bit of a shame, but not a health issue. Personally I think with THH, as they are quite rare in captivity, it is best to try and breed pure subspecies. It's got to be best for the future of this very lovely and rare species. We should do all we can to keep each subspecies thriving. Just how I personally feel about it.
__________________
Suze.

3 THB, Sammy, Jemima, & Phoebe
7 Marginated, Tabitha, Ptolome, Tatiana, Noah,Lottey, Lulu & Poppy
1 TGG (Emma) RIP Feb 2012
Suze65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2016, 12:33 PM   #22
Suze65
Senior Member
Adult
 
Suze65's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 6,769
Default

Equally I think we should try not cross THB & Hercegovinencis
__________________
Suze.

3 THB, Sammy, Jemima, & Phoebe
7 Marginated, Tabitha, Ptolome, Tatiana, Noah,Lottey, Lulu & Poppy
1 TGG (Emma) RIP Feb 2012
Suze65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2016, 12:49 PM   #23
Suze65
Senior Member
Adult
 
Suze65's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 6,769
Default

This might help http://www.hermannihaven.com/ its a great site
__________________
Suze.

3 THB, Sammy, Jemima, & Phoebe
7 Marginated, Tabitha, Ptolome, Tatiana, Noah,Lottey, Lulu & Poppy
1 TGG (Emma) RIP Feb 2012
Suze65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2016, 01:34 PM   #24
emma_mcraf
Senior Member
Adult
 
emma_mcraf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Devon
Posts: 11,364
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suze65 View Post
Equally I think we should try not cross THB & Hercegovinencis
I agree. Three of my males are crosses, which at the time I was really annoyed about as I had specifically wanted Hercs. It was an honest mistake on the breeders part as her female and male had both been identified as Hercs and it was the sexing of my juveniles that brought it to light. I wouldn't change them for the world now, but I would never cross-breed my Hercs and THB's.
__________________
Emma

Testudo Hermanni 5.12.2:Theo, Tamara, Tabitha, Harriet, Isabelle, Clara, Oscar, Hugo, Oliver, Florence, Arabella, Esmé, Aurelia, Felicia, Claudia, Atticus, Celestia, Amaris, Tristan and Clementine
Budgies: Jasper, Ivo, Otis, Henry, Louie and Luca
Doggies: 1.1.0 Chester and Lottie

emma_mcraf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2016, 01:42 PM   #25
4chester
Member
Incubating
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Geordieland
Posts: 162
Default

Chris L is a great source of information on THH and a very helpful person.

Oz - I'm still here just busy with kids, torts and work. I'm working with 2 locales of THH one adult group and a young group I'm growing on. I'm part of a small but growing band of people trying to maintain the locality's blood lines here in the UK, hence the question to Hanako, who has been honest in her response to the question.

Mark
4chester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2016, 02:03 PM   #26
Ozric Jonathan
Senior Member
Adult
 
Ozric Jonathan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: West of Scotland
Posts: 4,226
Default

Mark that's great to hear about you keeping hermannis.

I agree with you about Hanako giving an honest answer and I personally wouldn't want her to be discouraged from carrying on with the hermanni hermanni breeding.

My personal view is that we should do what we can to maintain the different types of hermanni hermanni. But we are not going to re-stock wild habitats with tortoises that have been bred in gardens in Glasgow and London. So if they are not pure they are not 'polluting' the wild gene pool.

Also I don't quite agree with Suze that breeding different hermannis counts as cross-breeding. A lot of taxonomists still don't accept hermanni hermanni at all, never mind drilling down into localities.
__________________
Testudo Hermanni Hermanni (Corse) tortoises
Ozric Jonathan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2016, 02:06 PM   #27
CherryBrandy
Senior Member
Adult
 
CherryBrandy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SE England
Posts: 4,259
Default

kennel club for crufts! very good principles although not altogether successful some would say.
all others are scruffs but soooo well loved i'm sure. Good debate and interesting on the views.
__________________
Horsfields, Spur Thighed, & Marginata
CherryBrandy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2016, 02:06 PM   #28
Hanako
Member
Hatchling
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 690
Default

I absolutely agree that one shouldn't mix THH, THB and THHerc. However, I disagree that two THH are different subspecies if they are from different localities. Species is Testudo Hermanni, subspecies is Hermanni versus Boetgerri versus Herc., but the subspecies are not divided into further and further subspecies. There is no single study that would call different locality a different subspecies. They are differences between localities, but not such differences that one could call it different subspecies.

With more than half of my tortoises I know where they come from and therefore will keep the localities. With the reminder (those that I purchased first) I don't know where they came from, and therefore will be breeding them as they are. There is lack of THH, so if the survival of species will depend only on the purest of the purest, they will soon become completely extinct. I am pretty open in saying whether I know or don't know where they originally come from, so I am not deceiving anyone, and at the same time I am not crossbreeding accross different species or subspecies. I am keeping them pure THH, but with some of them I will have to accept that their locality will never be known. Whoever wants to purchase a tortoise from a specific locality, they will obviously choose not to buy those tortoises, (after all, I am not hiding it that I don't know their locality), but who wants only THH and doesn't mind where from, they can buy those tortoises. As I see it, it is a bit like with any other animals. Some dogs have pedigree nearly as long as the Queen, others don't. As long as I don't mix species and subspecies, I really can't see anything wrong with it. And you may agree or disagree, that's up to you. I am not forcing anyone to buy them!
Hanako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2016, 02:19 PM   #29
Ozric Jonathan
Senior Member
Adult
 
Ozric Jonathan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: West of Scotland
Posts: 4,226
Default

"[QUOTE=Hanako;663423]I absolutely agree that one shouldn't mix THH, THB and THHerc. However, I disagree that two THH are different subspecies if they are from different localities. Species is Testudo Hermanni, subspecies is Hermanni versus Boetgerri versus Herc., but the subspecies are not divided into further and further subspecies. There is no single study that would call different locality a different subspecies. They are differences between localities, but not such differences that one could call it different subspecies. " ]


I agree totally with Hanako here.

Also the babies will probably be snapped up by eager keepers and in my opinion that's not a bad thing. They know what they are getting after all.
__________________
Testudo Hermanni Hermanni (Corse) tortoises
Ozric Jonathan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2016, 02:24 PM   #30
Hanako
Member
Hatchling
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 690
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon View Post
So breeding two thh together when you don't know exactly where they come from to me is wrong all you are doing is adding tortoises to the market because you seem to think it's ok to breed two tortoises together to get babies from to sell.
Just wanted to clarify, I didn't start breeding to get babies to sell. In fact, if you look through this forum, you may find the thread where I was shocked that a female laid the eggs; I didn't expect it so I didn't have anything ready.

Yes, I do think that it is ok to breed two tortoises from a different locality. I don't think it is ok to crossbreed between species and subspecies, but from the reasons I wrote in my previous post I can't see anything wrong between breeding between different localities. It's a matter of personal opinion and not everyone's opinion may be the same as yours.

I am definitely not breeding the tortoises for the money. If you notice, I am selling them at much lower price than it would be from other breeders or from the shop. The reason is because I want to have a control to whom I sell them. If I was breeding them for money, I wouldn't sell THH baby for £130, I would sell it for £160-170, which is the current price between the breeders in the UK and in the shop. The reason I sell them is because my girls are breeding and I can't keep them all. I have already doubled the amount of tortoises I wanted to have, and as more eggs are being laid, I can either get another house and move all the tortoises there, or I will have to say goodbye to some of them. Quite honestly, I wish they wouldn't be breeding. But I don't have the heart not to incubate the eggs if they have already laid them. They make such an effort and I should bin in? I can't do that! But it is a bit offensive when you suggest that I am breeding them for the money. Are you selling yours for £130?
Hanako is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.