14-03-2016, 12:28 PM | #21 |
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If they are from different localities they are different subspecies, and so you are cross breeding, which is a bit of a shame, but not a health issue. Personally I think with THH, as they are quite rare in captivity, it is best to try and breed pure subspecies. It's got to be best for the future of this very lovely and rare species. We should do all we can to keep each subspecies thriving. Just how I personally feel about it.
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14-03-2016, 12:33 PM | #22 |
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Equally I think we should try not cross THB & Hercegovinencis
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Suze. 3 THB, Sammy, Jemima, & Phoebe 7 Marginated, Tabitha, Ptolome, Tatiana, Noah,Lottey, Lulu & Poppy 1 TGG (Emma) RIP Feb 2012 |
14-03-2016, 12:49 PM | #23 |
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This might help http://www.hermannihaven.com/ its a great site
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Suze. 3 THB, Sammy, Jemima, & Phoebe 7 Marginated, Tabitha, Ptolome, Tatiana, Noah,Lottey, Lulu & Poppy 1 TGG (Emma) RIP Feb 2012 |
14-03-2016, 01:34 PM | #24 |
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I agree. Three of my males are crosses, which at the time I was really annoyed about as I had specifically wanted Hercs. It was an honest mistake on the breeders part as her female and male had both been identified as Hercs and it was the sexing of my juveniles that brought it to light. I wouldn't change them for the world now, but I would never cross-breed my Hercs and THB's.
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Emma Testudo Hermanni 5.12.2:Theo, Tamara, Tabitha, Harriet, Isabelle, Clara, Oscar, Hugo, Oliver, Florence, Arabella, Esmé, Aurelia, Felicia, Claudia, Atticus, Celestia, Amaris, Tristan and Clementine Budgies: Jasper, Ivo, Otis, Henry, Louie and Luca Doggies: 1.1.0 Chester and Lottie |
14-03-2016, 01:42 PM | #25 |
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Chris L is a great source of information on THH and a very helpful person.
Oz - I'm still here just busy with kids, torts and work. I'm working with 2 locales of THH one adult group and a young group I'm growing on. I'm part of a small but growing band of people trying to maintain the locality's blood lines here in the UK, hence the question to Hanako, who has been honest in her response to the question. Mark |
14-03-2016, 02:03 PM | #26 |
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Mark that's great to hear about you keeping hermannis.
I agree with you about Hanako giving an honest answer and I personally wouldn't want her to be discouraged from carrying on with the hermanni hermanni breeding. My personal view is that we should do what we can to maintain the different types of hermanni hermanni. But we are not going to re-stock wild habitats with tortoises that have been bred in gardens in Glasgow and London. So if they are not pure they are not 'polluting' the wild gene pool. Also I don't quite agree with Suze that breeding different hermannis counts as cross-breeding. A lot of taxonomists still don't accept hermanni hermanni at all, never mind drilling down into localities.
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14-03-2016, 02:06 PM | #27 |
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kennel club for crufts! very good principles although not altogether successful some would say.
all others are scruffs but soooo well loved i'm sure. Good debate and interesting on the views.
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14-03-2016, 02:06 PM | #28 |
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I absolutely agree that one shouldn't mix THH, THB and THHerc. However, I disagree that two THH are different subspecies if they are from different localities. Species is Testudo Hermanni, subspecies is Hermanni versus Boetgerri versus Herc., but the subspecies are not divided into further and further subspecies. There is no single study that would call different locality a different subspecies. They are differences between localities, but not such differences that one could call it different subspecies.
With more than half of my tortoises I know where they come from and therefore will keep the localities. With the reminder (those that I purchased first) I don't know where they came from, and therefore will be breeding them as they are. There is lack of THH, so if the survival of species will depend only on the purest of the purest, they will soon become completely extinct. I am pretty open in saying whether I know or don't know where they originally come from, so I am not deceiving anyone, and at the same time I am not crossbreeding accross different species or subspecies. I am keeping them pure THH, but with some of them I will have to accept that their locality will never be known. Whoever wants to purchase a tortoise from a specific locality, they will obviously choose not to buy those tortoises, (after all, I am not hiding it that I don't know their locality), but who wants only THH and doesn't mind where from, they can buy those tortoises. As I see it, it is a bit like with any other animals. Some dogs have pedigree nearly as long as the Queen, others don't. As long as I don't mix species and subspecies, I really can't see anything wrong with it. And you may agree or disagree, that's up to you. I am not forcing anyone to buy them! |
14-03-2016, 02:19 PM | #29 |
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"[QUOTE=Hanako;663423]I absolutely agree that one shouldn't mix THH, THB and THHerc. However, I disagree that two THH are different subspecies if they are from different localities. Species is Testudo Hermanni, subspecies is Hermanni versus Boetgerri versus Herc., but the subspecies are not divided into further and further subspecies. There is no single study that would call different locality a different subspecies. They are differences between localities, but not such differences that one could call it different subspecies. " ]
I agree totally with Hanako here. Also the babies will probably be snapped up by eager keepers and in my opinion that's not a bad thing. They know what they are getting after all.
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14-03-2016, 02:24 PM | #30 | |
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Quote:
Yes, I do think that it is ok to breed two tortoises from a different locality. I don't think it is ok to crossbreed between species and subspecies, but from the reasons I wrote in my previous post I can't see anything wrong between breeding between different localities. It's a matter of personal opinion and not everyone's opinion may be the same as yours. I am definitely not breeding the tortoises for the money. If you notice, I am selling them at much lower price than it would be from other breeders or from the shop. The reason is because I want to have a control to whom I sell them. If I was breeding them for money, I wouldn't sell THH baby for £130, I would sell it for £160-170, which is the current price between the breeders in the UK and in the shop. The reason I sell them is because my girls are breeding and I can't keep them all. I have already doubled the amount of tortoises I wanted to have, and as more eggs are being laid, I can either get another house and move all the tortoises there, or I will have to say goodbye to some of them. Quite honestly, I wish they wouldn't be breeding. But I don't have the heart not to incubate the eggs if they have already laid them. They make such an effort and I should bin in? I can't do that! But it is a bit offensive when you suggest that I am breeding them for the money. Are you selling yours for £130? |
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