T. g. graeca - How to tell a Moroccan from an Algerian

finchy · 14-08-2009, 03:10 PM

Please can someone advise how you tell a Morrocan TGG from an Algerian TGG?

Pics\Diagrams would be a great help

**Bindi** · 14-08-2009, 06:25 PM

Ha ha! I asked Dan the same question last night!

Here is his answer;

"Moroccans are usually smaller and have black spots/patches. Algerians are larger and have more of a rayed pattern. Those are the basic differences."

I'd also love to see some pics camparing the two, Finchy

**egyptiandan64** · 14-08-2009, 07:24 PM

Will get to that in a bit

but some reading in the mean time.
New DNA work has been just published for the North Africa spur-thighed group. They are recognising 5 subspecies based on DNA and morphological characteristics.
Moroccans animals are no longer T.g.graeca, but T.g.marokkensis in the north and T.g.sousensis in the south.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...8?crawler=true
I can't link directly to the PDF file, but you can get to it from here.

for free

Danny

**Bindi** · 14-08-2009, 08:02 PM

Ahh, a little light reading before bedtime, thanks Dan
Thanks for posting the pics, Kelly, that Morrocan's shell is a little like a Turkish Ibera colouring, or is it just me?

**egyptiandan64** · 14-08-2009, 08:14 PM

Thats the difference

The first vertebral scute is more rounded on the Algerian. The first coastal scutes curve in, between the marginals and first vertebral scute, forming what looks like a colon.
The ground colour of the carapace is lighter and the pattern is spots/rays usually radiating out from the center of the scute.
The spurs are large and most times an ivory colour.

The first vertebral scute isn't quite as rounded on the Moroccan. The first coastal scutes don't or just barely curve in, between the marginals and first vertebral scute.
The ground colour is a bit darker on the Moroccan, but can be just as light depending on the elevation they are from. The pattern is more dark patches, not spots or rays.
The spurs are small and darker in colour.

Danny

**Bindi** · 14-08-2009, 08:46 PM

Have either of you any more pics?

finchy · 14-08-2009, 10:50 PM

Wow Dan. Think I'm going to have to read this again in the morning

Here is my Algerian TGG. I would like to get 1 or 2 more Algerians, but they sure are rare in the UK.

**Bindi** · 15-08-2009, 08:18 AM

How old is your Algerian, Finchy? I have 4 that I re-homed earlier this year. They are in excess of 60 years old, I reckon they cme in as adults. They were then in the same family for 50 years before they came to live with me

Kelly, this is what I mean by one of my ibera's colouring
Mind you, now I've put it up it doesn't really look that similar

finchy · 15-08-2009, 09:20 AM

My TGG has been in my family 40+ years. It would have been wild caught back in those days so I have no idea of its age.

No one seems to be breeding these in the UK at the moment.

14-08-2009, 03:10 PM	#1
finchy Member Incubating Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 138	T. g. graeca - How to tell a Moroccan from an Algerian Please can someone advise how you tell a Morrocan TGG from an Algerian TGG? Pics\Diagrams would be a great help

14-08-2009, 06:25 PM	#2
Bindi Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Hampshire Posts: 11,157	Ha ha! I asked Dan the same question last night! Here is his answer; "Moroccans are usually smaller and have black spots/patches. Algerians are larger and have more of a rayed pattern. Those are the basic differences." I'd also love to see some pics camparing the two, Finchy __________________

14-08-2009, 07:24 PM	#3
egyptiandan64 Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 14,171	Will get to that in a bit but some reading in the mean time. New DNA work has been just published for the North Africa spur-thighed group. They are recognising 5 subspecies based on DNA and morphological characteristics. Moroccans animals are no longer T.g.graeca, but T.g.marokkensis in the north and T.g.sousensis in the south. http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...8?crawler=true I can't link directly to the PDF file, but you can get to it from here. for free Danny __________________

14-08-2009, 08:02 PM	#4
Bindi Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Hampshire Posts: 11,157	Ahh, a little light reading before bedtime, thanks Dan Thanks for posting the pics, Kelly, that Morrocan's shell is a little like a Turkish Ibera colouring, or is it just me? __________________

14-08-2009, 08:14 PM	#5
egyptiandan64 Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 14,171	Thats the difference The first vertebral scute is more rounded on the Algerian. The first coastal scutes curve in, between the marginals and first vertebral scute, forming what looks like a colon. The ground colour of the carapace is lighter and the pattern is spots/rays usually radiating out from the center of the scute. The spurs are large and most times an ivory colour. The first vertebral scute isn't quite as rounded on the Moroccan. The first coastal scutes don't or just barely curve in, between the marginals and first vertebral scute. The ground colour is a bit darker on the Moroccan, but can be just as light depending on the elevation they are from. The pattern is more dark patches, not spots or rays. The spurs are small and darker in colour. Danny __________________

14-08-2009, 08:46 PM	#6
Bindi Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Hampshire Posts: 11,157	Have either of you any more pics? __________________

14-08-2009, 10:50 PM	#7
finchy Member Incubating Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 138	Wow Dan. Think I'm going to have to read this again in the morning Here is my Algerian TGG. I would like to get 1 or 2 more Algerians, but they sure are rare in the UK.

15-08-2009, 08:18 AM	#8
Bindi Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Hampshire Posts: 11,157	How old is your Algerian, Finchy? I have 4 that I re-homed earlier this year. They are in excess of 60 years old, I reckon they cme in as adults. They were then in the same family for 50 years before they came to live with me Kelly, this is what I mean by one of my ibera's colouring Mind you, now I've put it up it doesn't really look that similar __________________ Last edited by Bindi; 15-08-2009 at 08:39 AM.

15-08-2009, 09:20 AM	#9
finchy Member Incubating Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 138	My TGG has been in my family 40+ years. It would have been wild caught back in those days so I have no idea of its age. No one seems to be breeding these in the UK at the moment.

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