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Old 15-11-2011, 10:00 PM   #1
NickH
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Question Too light for hibernation

Hi,

I have an adult female Mediterranean spur-thighed tortoise that I've kept for many years. She's had a very lean year and is currently 275mm carapace length and 2.45kg, Jackson's ratio 0.12. Obviously not good, though she has been apparently healthy. I don't have comparative weights for the past few years, but some years ago she routinely weighed around 3.8kg at this time of year (Jackson's ratio 0.20).

I'd welcome advice on what to do. I've never attempted to keep her awake over winter, and have never had any success at getting her to eat when indoors, even under heat lamps.

Is there anywhere that would accommodate her in a vivarium until her weight improved?

Thanks.

Nick
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Old 15-11-2011, 10:39 PM   #2
Ozric Jonathan
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Hi Nick. Your numbers look a bit alarming to me - some years she weighed over 1kg more than she does now at this time of year? If that's right then there must be something wrong. After all the amount of shell must be the same so the difference must be water, fat and body tissue. I doubt you would find anyone to take her in partly because she might have a serious health problem.

I think it might be really unsafe to let this tortoise hibernate. Lets see what others suggest but I think you have to think in terms of providing for her indoors all winter and trying to get her weight up.
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Old 15-11-2011, 11:12 PM   #3
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Firstly, welcome

Join the club. This is the first year Joe has not been able to hibernate. It's a common problem with mature UK spur thighs, from what I can gather, due to the lousy summers we've had over the last couple of years.

Joe's winter quarters are pictured here. http://www.shelledwarriors.co.uk/for...ad.php?t=46709
He's taken over my dining room in a 6 foot by 4 foot book case lined with pond liner. Our tort-qualified vet has advised me to let him out to let off steam for a couple of hours every day pretty much regardless of the weather.

It's the same advice regarding temperatures as for the little guys, you just have to do everything on a semi-industrial scale. Joe's in the dining room because it would be impossible to get my garage up to anything like the required background temperature without bankrupting us with the heating bill. With this set-up, I can achieve 30 degrees daytime and with central heating and lamps off it drops to 23.5 degrees at night.

Newspaper isn't an ideal substrate, but when these guys toilet... there's a lot to clear up. The house bricks are for clambering which Joe does a lot.
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Last edited by JoesMum; 15-11-2011 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 15-11-2011, 11:34 PM   #4
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I agree wholely with what Jonathan said. There has to be something wrong with your tortoise, as that is much to light for her size. Even when she was 3,800g, she was low for her size. If your measureing her carapace in a straight line, she should be weighing 4,320g.
She definately shouldn't be hibernated and you should get her to a vet ASAP.

Danny
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Old 16-11-2011, 12:05 AM   #5
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The tortoise trust has a very useful bit on measuring your tort accurately here http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/measuring.htm Having re-read your post, I agree you should be going to a vet and hibernation is NOT an option.

Whereabouts are you? Maybe we can recommend someone
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Old 16-11-2011, 01:17 AM   #6
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Well having weighed my old Spur Thigh last year and this year, now at 2080g, I would say he will be spot on with another 2 weeks wind down. He is a masively strong active WC tortoise and He will be hibernating as usual. I certainly would'nt say he was underweight. I know females can be heavier, they don't move so much. Where does the figure of 4,320 come from? Surely every tortoise is different and most are overfed compaired with those in the wild.

It could be that the original weight of 3.8k might have been a mistake. Do you actually know that she has not been eating much this year Nick? Does she seem fit and healthy? It can be very difficult to keep older tortoises going over the winter when it is usual for them to hibernate. Obviously you know your tortoise, is there anything that worries you about her other than the weight issue? You could go for two month hibernation this year starting after Christmas, that would give another months feeding.
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Old 16-11-2011, 01:33 AM   #7
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This comes from the Hailey Calculator, which I feel is much more accurate as they only used wild animal's weights and did not include any captive animals as the Jackson Ratio does. His calculator takes into consideration the difference between males and females and works for 3 different species (all 3 species data is in the calculator), Spur-thighs, Hermanns and Marginated. I feel it is a much better guide as to what your tortoise should be weighing as compared to a wild tortoise of the same size.
Here is the website http://www.ahailey.f9.co.uk/menu.htm

Danny
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Old 16-11-2011, 12:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egyptiandan64 View Post
This comes from the Hailey Calculator, which I feel is much more accurate as they only used wild animal's weights and did not include any captive animals as the Jackson Ratio does. His calculator takes into consideration the difference between males and females and works for 3 different species (all 3 species data is in the calculator), Spur-thighs, Hermanns and Marginated. I feel it is a much better guide as to what your tortoise should be weighing as compared to a wild tortoise of the same size.
Here is the website http://www.ahailey.f9.co.uk/menu.htm

Danny
Thank you. I haven't seen that one before and I agree it looks much better. Fortunately Joe is in the normal range on both despite a lack of weight gain this year.
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Old 16-11-2011, 01:20 PM   #9
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Personally I find the "Hailey Calculator" a lot better, even if it does make my tort slightly under weight.

My Spur Thigh has always been well over weight using the JR Graph (the one you can print).

I've never understood the "JR Calculator Ratio method"
http://www.tinytortoises.co.uk/healthy%20growth.html
used by the OP, it seems to work at the lower end of the graph but it is doesn't with larger torts at the other end. (compared to the original graph)


I'll stick with Hailey from now on.
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Old 16-11-2011, 03:20 PM   #10
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Hi All,

Many thanks for the replies. I'm grateful for all the voices of concern. I've had Lucy for getting on for 40 years. This last year has been tough for both of us: I've been unwell and incapacitated, so husbandry has suffered and Lucy has had a lot less attention and hand-feeding than usual. I suspected Lucy was light, but yesterday's weight (I must confess the first taken for a few years) was a shock.

I'm happy to report, however, that the weighing procedure yesterday was in error. Apologies for the misinformation and for possibly wasting your time. Performed correctly, her true weight is 3.94kg, straight carapace length 274mm.

The Jackson's ratio calculation was something I was shown many years ago by a representative of the British Chelonia Group. Since I started checking against this in 1992, Lucy has consistently been circa 0.2. I'm frankly surprised to see the references that suggest that much higher weights would be expected, though I'm disinclined to panic after so many years of stability and apparent good health.

My understanding now is that the 3.94kg weight is low, but not unconscionable for hibernation. Is that reasonable?

I've included replies to a few specifics below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelled Lady View Post
Well having weighed my old Spur Thigh last year and this year, now at 2080g, I would say he will be spot on with another 2 weeks wind down.
What's the carapace length of your male spur-thigh?

Quote:
It could be that the original weight of 3.8k might have been a mistake. Do you actually know that she has not been eating much this year Nick? Does she seem fit and healthy?
The old weights are reliable as, I believe, is the new figure today. I do know she has been eating less this year; she's always shown a propensity to eat less if left to her own devices rather than being hand-fed, even if the same stuff was available. There's nothing other than her weight that has given major cause for concern. She's seemed a bit miserable some of the time, but I'd attribute that to the weather and lack of company!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoesMum View Post
Joe's winter quarters are pictured here. http://www.shelledwarriors.co.uk/for...ad.php?t=46709
He's taken over my dining room in a 6 foot by 4 foot book case lined with pond liner.
Looks good. What are Joe's vital stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoesMum View Post
Having re-read your post, I agree you should be going to a vet and hibernation is NOT an option.

Whereabouts are you? Maybe we can recommend someone
Although there may be no immediate crisis, a recommendation for someone with specialist expertise would be terrific. We're in Derby, East Midlands.

Prior to the re-weighing this morning, I had wondered if Joe would like a girl-friend for the winter? She's a looker <g>.

Nick
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