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Old 27-04-2012, 12:09 AM   #51
Easter Bunny
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Originally Posted by jeff View Post
But for people who have lost the lot, tough tittie


You would have to be very unlucky to lose the lot if we are talking about full A10.
One could scan the tortoise to get the chip number,Then get a new A10.
I wanted to buy a tortoise and the sellers had lost the A10, They also didn't have the certificate number, and the tort wasn't chipped.They didn't realise how important the A10 was.

I rang DEFRA and they said there was nothing I could do to get another a10 for this tortoise

So in a case like this the tortoise legally cannot be sold.
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Old 27-04-2012, 12:16 AM   #52
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I think where people get confused is they think an a10 is some sort of certificate of ownership .....it isn't.
All it's for is to use a protected animal for commercial purpose's
ie: to sell , to swap , exchange etc.
It's all about proving the providence of stock nothing more nothing less
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Old 27-04-2012, 12:21 AM   #53
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On a transaction certifacate you may be stuffed there,If you do not have the A10 number.
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Old 27-04-2012, 10:40 AM   #54
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I posted this on RFUK, it might be of some assistance here [see below]. Again theoretically if you have a permit number Animal Health should have a record of that permit. However, that is not always the case some data was lost/corrupted when the computer systems was changed. A microchip number may not always suffice as they are on occasions changed, I am not certain if a new chip is implanted if the old number is kept on record.



Theoretically there are two kinds of Article 10 Certificates, I say theoretically because Animal Health, formally Defra, keep chopping and changing and basically rewriting the rule book. There also appears to be an unwritten policy when changes are made not to inform people of the changes, which is exceedingly unhelpful.

There are Transaction Specific Certificates [TSC] and Specimen Specific Certificates [SSC], the visual differences in appearance between the certificates is very subtle and never has the advice to “read the small print” been more apt! Why the two certificates could not be easily visually distinguishable eludes me, a common sense approach would seem sensible as confusion between the two certificates has been known for years.

Transaction Specific Certificates are valid for a single transaction [sale] and only for the person named in box 1. If the specimen is to be used for a commercial purpose the then the purchaser needs to apply for a new certificate, the vendor MUST return the original certificate to Animal Health. The vendor should give the purchases a photo copy of the certificate [this was once a criminal offence] or simply write the number on a scarp of paper. The purchase then has to apply and pay a fee to have a new certificate issued. If the vendor does not return the certificate or it gets lost then the lost in the post/system then the purchaser may not be able to get a new certificate.

Specimen Specific Certificates can only be issued once a specimen is “unequally marked” in the case of reptiles this means that an ISO compliant microchip has been implanted into the animal. Once the specimen is microchip a SSC certificate can be issued and then that certificate stays with the animal for the rest of its life and the name in box 1 becomes irrelevant.

Formally tortoises had to be microchip once they had reached 100mm, this is still the case but with the introduction of new smaller chips tortoises as small as 60mm may be chipped. The advantage this offers is to reduce the number of TSC issued, thus reducing the cost. Currently Article 10 Certificates cost £25 per application this will rise shortly to more then double this.

What purpose Article 10 Certificates perform is a perfectly valid question and one which I am afraid I cannot answer as I have no idea! Despite asking the authorities repeatedly they have never given a clear and concise answer to the question, so I assume they don’t know either!
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Old 27-04-2012, 10:42 AM   #55
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This might be of interest:

Article 10 Certificates – the facts

The function of an Article 10 Certificate is purely bureaucratic, and lacks any practical or significant conservation benefits. The suggestion that Article 10 Certificates are an important conservation measure is entirely disingenuous, when they are clearly not as:

You do not need an Article 10 Certificate to keep an Annex A species

• You do not need an Article 10 Certificate to breed an Annex A species

• You do not need an Article 10 Certificate to dispose of an Annex A species

Article 10 Certificate are only required if the animals are used for (quote) a “commercial purpose” [commercial being undefined]. Annex A Certificates are, therefore, clearly a bureaucratic process - in reality little more than a tax as you have to pay for Article 10 Certificate to be issued or modified.

Less than 10% of people who legally keep a species scheduled on Annex A will hold an Article 10 Certificate in their own name. Even for those that do, there is still no mechanism for the authorities to know who is keeping, or who is breeding, what species as there is no requirement to notify authorities in change of ownership or animals bred, provided they are not used for a commercial purpose.

Issues:

There are two types of Article 10 certificate, one type called a Transaction Specific Certificate (TSC), the other called a Specimen Specific Certificate (SSC). Visually both types are identical, only careful examination of the small print in the relevant boxes reveals which is which. Nowhere on the document does it state this is a Transaction Specific Certificate or Specimen Specific Certificate! A Transaction Specific Certificate is currently valid for one transaction [sale] only, and then solely by the individual shown in Box 1. A Specimen Specific Certificate is valid for the life of the animal and unlimited transactions, regardless of the name shown in Box 1.

Prior to around 2006 Transaction Certificates were also valid for multiple transactions [sales], and the name in Box 1 did not need to be changed. When this procedure was withdrawn not a single trader or keeper was notified by the UK Authority (DEFRA/Animal Health), with no guidance issued and no articles published. As of today’s date still no guidance has been issued despite this matter being raised repeatedly with the authorities for the past five years!

To create further confusion for traders and keepers, the requirements for Transaction Certificates ‘appear’ to have changed yet again in the latter half of this year (2010). In the first half of this year traders were required to provide the original Transaction Certificate at point of sale but now traders appear to be required not to hand over the original Transaction Certificate. Instead they supply a photocopy of the document, or write the certificate number on an invoice, and return the original document to the Management Authority even though it was previously considered an offence to photocopy an original certificate!

Typically, no advance guidance on this latest change has been issued to traders, trade associations or appeared in any trade magazines.

Chris Newman – Reptile & Exotic Pet Trade Association, 1st November 2010
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Old 27-04-2012, 10:56 AM   #56
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Chris, Thanks for posting that.
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Old 27-04-2012, 11:26 AM   #57
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The biggest problem is that many people..or in fact most people I would say.. are unaware of what they need to do and DEFRA should come up with some sort of publicity campaign to make people aware of what they are required to do and what the penalties are. Pet shops are not even aware of it in many cases
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Old 27-04-2012, 12:09 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caledonia View Post
The biggest problem is that many people..or in fact most people I would say.. are unaware of what they need to do and DEFRA should come up with some sort of publicity campaign to make people aware of what they are required to do and what the penalties are. Pet shops are not even aware of it in many cases
Alan,
There is some good up to date information, sent out to the pet trade by their advisory officers and a few responsible dealers have done a good job in my opinion disseminating this to the pet shops. However, the frequency of change and accepted practice which is evident in the last couple of years makes the situation quite difficult to understand and at times apply?
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Old 27-04-2012, 12:23 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caledonia View Post
The biggest problem is that many people..or in fact most people I would say.. are unaware of what they need to do and DEFRA should come up with some sort of publicity campaign to make people aware of what they are required to do and what the penalties are. Pet shops are not even aware of it in many cases
I could agree more, the dissemination of information from Animal Health is very poor and they never notify anyone of changes before implementing them. If they wish people to comply with the requirements then they need to engage with stakeholders and actually take notice of what they suggest. REPTA offered to print and circulate leaflets to all traders explaining to them they requirements, they declined!
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Old 28-04-2012, 01:48 AM   #60
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From the outside looking in it would seem that DEFRA is trying to manage something they really don't want to.

There is a reason for all this legislation... some squeeky wheel needed some greasing. Now that the hobby is becoming more popular others are speaking up and the officials seem to be at a loss as to how to please all parties.

So... voter input seems to be in order. You've already got some representitives as spokespersons. Give them some input to pass along as to how the government can protect the species the 'someone' insisted needed protecting.

The bunny huggers pretty much created this monster you are dealing with.

Without the keepers input the powers that be are going to do what they think is proper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caledonia View Post
The biggest problem is that many people..or in fact most people I would say.. are unaware of what they need to do and DEFRA should come up with some sort of publicity campaign to make people aware of what they are required to do and what the penalties are. Pet shops are not even aware of it in many cases
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