Have you got an opinion on ?

[Levi]

Hi all,

What is everyone's opinions on hibernation guides that recommend 0°C as a Minimum and 10°C as a Maximum ? (0 to 10°C guides)

It was recently pointed out on here that the TV Vet Joe Inglis on the Titchmarsh show said that tortoises should be hibernated between 0°C & 10°C, but ideally around 5C. (I personally think this is very dangerous advice to be giving)

Joe the Vet was asked where he got his hibernation advice from and he replied on Twitter

"try tortoisetrust.org - lots of great info there"

and yes Joe is right the Tortoise Trusts Safer Hibernation guide does state that the "Critical" Temperatures for hibernation are

MAXIMUM = l0 °C
MINIMUM = 0 °C (Freezing Point)
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/safer.html

and below these temperatures it clearly states

"Under no circumstances whatsoever should a hibernating tortoise be subjected to prolonged exposure to temperatures higher or lower than these.".

So they also seems to be saying that a hibernating "tortoise" can go above 10°C or below 0°C for a short amount of time ! How very ODD.

Surely that means a dead or blind tortoise or an awake tort doesn't it, it certainly doesn't sound that SAFE to me. Maybe somebody would like to explain this very odd statement and the associated temperatures.

All of the hibernation Guides I have come across recommend far safer temperature limits for the "tortoise" such as 3 to 7°C, why would anyone recommend 0 & 10°C ?
From my box hibernating days I know that my tort would be moving about a lot at 8 or 9 degrees let alone 10°C and I would never let her get below 3 degrees C.
Personally I don't like taking risks with tortoises lives.

Gibson & Jones Veterinary Surgeons
http://gibsonandjonesllanelli.co.uk/8.html
in Wales also recommend 0 to 10°C.

http://gibsonandjonesllanelli.co.uk/...info+sheet.pdf

They simply say in their last paragraph that.......

"A hibernating tortoise must be kept between 0 and 10 °C......"

Please note the link they supply to the TT website.

I should also point out that most normal thermometers are only accurate to +or - One Degree. In fact an independent test by a certain tortoise group has shown that some cheap (£9.99 or less) thermometers can be out by plus or minus 2C or more. So that means plus 1°C could really be Minus 1°C. (or dead tortoise)

So it is essential that keepers follow proper sensible guides with safer lower temperatures, they should also calibrate their thermometers to see how accurate they are. Some better guides actually recommend keepers do this.

http://www.thepawblog.com/hibernatin...-pet-tortoise/

Above is another 0-10°C guide, this one gives all the usual advice (magic insulated box etc) and states the temperatures of 0°C, 10°C & 5°C.
Again if anyone followed this guide to the letter they could have a dead or blind tort on their hands, 0°C does kill. They say.......

"5. Use a thermometer to record the temperature of the hibernating box. Some people will actually tape the end of the thermometer probe to the tortoise’s shell.

6. The ideal temperature for hibernation is 5oC/40o F. However, a range of 0-10oC (32-50oF) is acceptable."

There are other similar guides on the web using 0°C & 10°C and as far as I'm aware the Tortoise Trust are the only Major Tortoise Welfare Group to promote the temperatures of 0°C & 10°C as Minimum & Maximum temperatures in a hibernation guide.

I would respectfully suggest that if anyone would like like to defend one of these guides then they really need to defend them all ( including Joe the vets advice he got from the TT website) personally I think all of these guides are very irresponsible
and finding this sort of thing on the web really bothers me.

Anyone got any thoughts on this.

[Pussygalore]

are you a member of the TT forum? if so I would simply ask them their reasons, they have always said those temps and I'm sure have a very good reason why. I personally wouldn't want it either that high or low and like you aim for between 4-7c having said that I personally don't think its either nice or right to discuss the TT without having spoken to them first.

[Levi]

Hi thank you for the reply,

This subject was discussed on the TT forum back in April of this year and the temperatures were finally explained to me. I told the TT that their guide was very misleading, they didn't change anything.

On the 13th Sept 2011 I raised the subject again when I realised that many other people including Vets around the country didn't understand how the TT guide is supposed to work and were recommending 0 & 10°C.

I am no longer a TT forum member, I was banned before I could post more links to hibernation guides that don't understand this method.
I have tried twice to get my point across on the TT forum but it is very difficult when the writer of this guide has his finger on the BAN button.

If the TT didn't want me to bring this subject up elsewhere then maybe they shouldn't of banned me from their forum.

Originally Posted by Pussygalore

they have always said those temps and I'm sure have a very good reason why.

I'm sure they do unfortunately no one knows the reason why, including yourself it seems. Didn't you find those temperatures a little odd ?

[Pussygalore]

Yes I do find those temps 'odd' but like I said I don't think this forum is for discussing other forum/organisations especially one as well known as the TT, all it will do is cause upset and possible even slander/liable suits. The TT rarely post on here so are not here to answer any allegations the same would apply to any other well known organisation.

[Levi]

Originally Posted by Pussygalore

Yes I do find those temps 'odd' but like I said I don't think this forum is for discussing other forum/organisations especially one as well known as the TT, all it will do is cause upset and possible even slander/liable suits. The TT rarely post on here so are not here to answer any allegations the same would apply to any other well known organisation.

I'm sure many experienced keepers like yourself have read the TT guide and wondered why they suggest those temperatures. Unfortunately they didn't feel the need to drop the TT an E-mail and ask. It is called the "Safer Hibernation Guide" if you didn't think those temperatures were safe why didn't you mention this to them ?

I have only asked questions and stated facts, nothing slanderous has been said or will be said. If you are happy with tortoises being hibernated from 0 to 10°C then I would suggest we just forget about this and sweep it under the carpet. Maybe SW should ban me as well (and delete this thread) ?

I'm just trying to save tortoise lives, I'm sorry if this is uncomfortable for the tortoise community.

[Pussygalore]

considering the fact that you haven't been here very long you're certainly starting of very contreversially, there are many ways of keeping torts and none of us ever agree what is right or wrong, and I certainly wouldn't say that the TT have got it wrong. While I don't agree with their every word and don't post on their forum if they say those temps are safe then I'll take their word for it, that doesn't mean to say they would work for me or that I'd want to test them or that they are the temps I'd suggest. However for torts that are hibernated naturally ie dig down they may well experience highs and lows without waking up, I have never used the natural method so wouldn't really know, I do know that you wouldn't get those variations in a decent fridge so doubt they apply to that method and in a shed you shouldn't get them either, like I said I don't know the reasons they are giving for that range. Maybe the location and method plays a big part in the temps being acceptable, for the new/inexperienced owner I'd suggest a much narrower range, while my adults would have stayed asleep at 10c a younger tort might well wake up but only if the temps stayed high for a period of time, as for the lower I understand that temps below 3c are dangerous but again over a period of time and if the tort is buried under a couple of feet of soil then again maybe it can tolerate it better than say one more exposed to the elements. I'm just guessing on these I have already said I don't know the reasons for the temp range. In fact after just having a quick look at AH's latest book it says very similar to what I would advise, those temps are the maximum critical levels which if you read more does say not over a prolonged period, as hibernation goes their guide in this book is very good and safe, I think you are taking a somewhat narrow view almost looking for an argument/personal vendetta view over a site which most would reccomend even if they don't always follow or agree.

[Levi]

Originally Posted by Pussygalore

considering the fact that you haven't been here very long you're certainly starting of very contreversially, there are many ways of keeping torts and none of us ever agree what is right or wrong, and I certainly wouldn't say that the TT have got it wrong. While I don't agree with their every word and don't post on their forum if they say those temps are safe then I'll take their word for it, that doesn't mean to say they would work for me or that I'd want to test them or that they are the temps I'd suggest. However for torts that are hibernated naturally ie dig down they may well experience highs and lows without waking up, I have never used the natural method so wouldn't really know, I do know that you wouldn't get those variations in a decent fridge so doubt they apply to that method and in a shed you shouldn't get them either, like I said I don't know the reasons they are giving for that range. Maybe the location and method plays a big part in the temps being acceptable, for the new/inexperienced owner I'd suggest a much narrower range, while my adults would have stayed asleep at 10c a younger tort might well wake up but only if the temps stayed high for a period of time, as for the lower I understand that temps below 3c are dangerous but again over a period of time and if the tort is buried under a couple of feet of soil then again maybe it can tolerate it better than say one more exposed to the elements. I'm just guessing on these I have already said I don't know the reasons for the temp range. In fact after just having a quick look at AH's latest book it says very similar to what I would advise, those temps are the maximum critical levels which if you read more does say not over a prolonged period, as hibernation goes their guide in this book is very good and safe, I think you are taking a somewhat narrow view almost looking for an argument/personal vendetta view over a site which most would reccomend even if they don't always follow or agree.

"I certainly wouldn't say that the TT have got it wrong. While I don't agree with their every word and don't post on their forum if they say those temps are safe then I'll take their word for it,........."

Thank you,

This the problem with today's society, to many people are willing to believe and trust and not question things. Of course the TT wouldn't really recommend those temperatures for a hibernating tortoise. They recommend far safer temperatures.
I would just like all 0 to 10°C guides removed from the internet 0°C does kill and blind, the TT guide clearly states that. (thermometers are not accurate) this is not a personal vendetta.
Yes you are right a tortoise will be perfectly safe dug into a good amount of dry free draining soil, but we are talking about box hibernation here. No amount of insulation will protect a tortoise if it is left at too low a temperature. i.e. 0°C. Which is the minimum temperature stated.
Remember that guide says

""Under no circumstances whatsoever should a hibernating tortoise be subjected to prolonged exposure to temperatures higher or lower than these.". "

So that is prolonged exposure to temperature lower than 0°C then.

It is a shame you don't understand this guide either but it does prove a point nicely.

Thanks.

[EJ]

Wow... you so jumped into it feet first.

Understand the basics... hibernation is an adaptation to unfavorable conditions. It is not a necessity.

[ibizathetort]

I don't think thats the point of this thread Ed

Levi - totally understand where you are coming from, did you get an explanation from the TT of these recommended temps before you were banned?

[EJ]

I think it is totally the point of the post... It took me a good amount of time to get banned.

Originally Posted by ibizathetort

I don't think thats the point of this thread Ed

Levi - totally understand where you are coming from, did you get an explanation from the TT of these recommended temps before you were banned?