Hibernation... again

[EJ]

I'm sitting here reading all the posts of failed hibernations that I've been reading every year on these chats, forums and lists for the last 12 years.

I'm so affraid to respond but feel a need to...

My sympathies to those that have had trouble and to those whose tortoises have yet to come out of hibernation that don't make it.

Congratulations to those who successfully hibernated their tortoises... this year.

The point of this is a reminder of if hibernation is a necessity? Is hibernation worth the risk vs. the benefit.

Can the benefit be defined... outside of giving the keeper a break in pet care?

It tears me up to read some of the posts of those who were not successful... the key question... is hibernation necessary.

...and no I'm not trying to stir crap... there are much easier ways to do that... I'm trying to get people to give a little consideration to the ideas of the common dogma that is forced down their throats... for which... they can pay the ultimate price.

[Petrus]

Originally Posted by EJ

I'm sitting here reading all the posts of failed hibernations that I've been reading every year on these chats, forums and lists for the last 12 years.

I'm so affraid to respond but feel a need to...

My sympathies to those that have had trouble and to those whose tortoises have yet to come out of hibernation that don't make it.

Congratulations to those who successfully hibernated their tortoises... this year.

The point of this is a reminder of if hibernation is a necessity? Is hibernation worth the risk vs. the benefit.

Can the benefit be defined... outside of giving the keeper a break in pet care?

It tears me up to read some of the posts of those who were not successful... the key question... is hibernation necessary.

...and no I'm not trying to stir crap... there are much easier ways to do that... I'm trying to get people to give a little consideration to the ideas of the common dogma that is forced down their throats... for which... they can pay the ultimate price.

Ed,

I've thought about this a lot and the same question keeps coming into my head. Maybe you can shed some light on it.

People keep going on about "the wild" and what is "natural". However, could it be thaat tortoises only hibernate in the wild because they HAVE to. Therefore, in captivity, where we can provide adequate light and heat, hibernation is totally not required? Am I off track here?

[EJ]

I am going to research this further and will pass along any information that either supports or contradicts my point of view.

Originally Posted by Petrus

Ed,

I've thought about this a lot and the same question keeps coming into my head. Maybe you can shed some light on it.

People keep going on about "the wild" and what is "natural". However, could it be thaat tortoises only hibernate in the wild because they HAVE to. Therefore, in captivity, where we can provide adequate light and heat, hibernation is totally not required? Am I off track here?

[Petrus]

Originally Posted by EJ

I am going to research this further and will pass along any information that either supports or contradicts my point of view.

Just for the record, I don't plan on hibernating. My guess is that torts only hibernate in the wild because they haave to. I'm providing heat and light, so why would I taake such a big risk.

[andybrock]

Originally Posted by Petrus

Just for the record, I don't plan on hibernating. My guess is that torts only hibernate in the wild because they haave to. I'm providing heat and light, so why would I taake such a big risk.

I'm with you on this one Petrus.
Cant imagine what it would be like to lose one of the chaps and condolences to anyone who has this year

Will take it year by year but have overwintered this time.

[Kirkie]

Interesting and valid question Ed.

For me, hibernation is a continuation of how I keep my tortoises and turtles. It's not something I enter into lightly, I've make mistakes along the way but I'm now confident that I have a method and duration for each species that absolutely minimises risk to the animals.

I think one problem is that hibernation is going to exacerbate any underlying health issues that are present but undetected. The assessment of a tortoise being "fit to hibernate" is usually made via external checks and measurements. I personally feel that it is becoming quite rare for a tortoise to die "of" rather than "in" hibernation.

Keeping a tortoise awake through the winter would allow an owner to notice warning signs of an impending illness that may go noticed during the wind down and hibernation period.

It's very difficult to report the death of any young tortoise but it would be of great interest over the coming years to compare the success rate in growing young tortoises onto adulthood for the various methods of husbandry now being attempted for tortoises. I know a lot of "old school" keepers who continue to enjoy success in the breeding and raising of spectacularly healthy tortoises. I know newer keepers who also follow these methods successfully. You've always been open on reporting your methods; it would be welcomed if people could be honest over their successes and failures with this new generation of tortoises and methods.

There was a French article posted on the forum some time ago regarding the failure rate of Testudo Hermanni hatchlings hibernate vs non hibernated. It was given scant regard but the authors and the publication are well regarded (Bernard Devaux, anyone?) and I think a similar comparison for UK tortoises has merit. It may prove nothing , it may prove a link, it may prove there is no link.

There is the question of whether hibernation extends the life expectancy of the tortoise. There is the counter argument that the tortoise isn't "living" during the hibernation. If you look at other chelonian with a natural life expectancy shorter than a hibernating tortoise species but with a similar natural life cycle there are pieces of evidence that suggest the withholding of hibernation has a significant impact on the life expectancy of captive animals. Kinosternon Flavescens is a well studied species whose cycle is not dissimilar to a hibernating tortoise in terms of annual activity.
They appear to have a much reduced lifespan when kept in normal captive turtle conditions with hibernation withheld. They are hardly a delicate species so I don't think it is captivity itself that has a life shortening effect. But there is the question of having a “life” during the enforced inactivity periods and also why periods of decreased activity and metabolism should significantly increase the number of years an animal reaches.

At the opposite end are the Aldabras, Radiated and Galapagos; the longest living vertebrates on the planet; which of course, don't hibernate.

Time and time again we see the word "confidence" used in conjunction with hibernation. Overconfidence is as deadly as lack of confidence. I would always recommend that people do their utmost to understand the process of hibernation; the physiology and the limits. It can be undertaken successfully; given a lot of thought and research. Is it a necessity? In my honest opinion, no. Is it of benefit? Possibly (and yes in the context of reproduction). Can it be successful? Certainly.

I've spoken with several people regarding a method I've used for young box turtles; not dissimilar to your own cooling methods. With a bit of thought and a limited duration I could see this as a useful substitute to full hibernation for tortoises and would like to hear how you undertake this sometime.

It's a sad fact; young tortoises don't all make it regardless of methods. You can give them the best conditions possible, you can do everything you think is right and it still happens.

[EJ]

wow... this is one of the best and objective responses I've ever read to this topic.

I've brought this up in the past... there is an argument that people who don't get enough sleep have shorter lives... or... the heart has a limited number of beats... this is the stuff I've come across over the years.

I did see the french reference and probably have it saved but I believe it was not done objectively.

The Yellow Mud turtle... same thing. I got the impression that the writers were out to prove a point and not provide objective information.

In the case of the Yellow Mud turtle... I'm pretty sure they do not hibernate throughout their range.

For me... the best test is the null hypothesis... to prove what you are proving is wrong. If you are right... you are right. (in simple terms).

The question still remains... Is hibernation a necessity? You really cannot prove such a thing... as you really cannot prove that not hibernating species which hibernate in the wild is necessary... or... hibernating species which normally does not hibernate in the wild is harmful... any moreso harmful than hibernating a hibernating species.

Originally Posted by Kirkie

Interesting and valid question Ed.

For me, hibernation is a continuation of how I keep my tortoises and turtles. It's not something I enter into lightly, I've make mistakes along the way but I'm now confident that I have a method and duration for each species that absolutely minimises risk to the animals.

I think one problem is that hibernation is going to exacerbate any underlying health issues that are present but undetected. The assessment of a tortoise being "fit to hibernate" is usually made via external checks and measurements. I personally feel that it is becoming quite rare for a tortoise to die "of" rather than "in" hibernation.

Keeping a tortoise awake through the winter would allow an owner to notice warning signs of an impending illness that may go noticed during the wind down and hibernation period.

It's very difficult to report the death of any young tortoise but it would be of great interest over the coming years to compare the success rate in growing young tortoises onto adulthood for the various methods of husbandry now being attempted for tortoises. I know a lot of "old school" keepers who continue to enjoy success in the breeding and raising of spectacularly healthy tortoises. I know newer keepers who also follow these methods successfully. You've always been open on reporting your methods; it would be welcomed if people could be honest over their successes and failures with this new generation of tortoises and methods.

There was a French article posted on the forum some time ago regarding the failure rate of Testudo Hermanni hatchlings hibernate vs non hibernated. It was given scant regard but the authors and the publication are well regarded (Bernard Devaux, anyone?) and I think a similar comparison for UK tortoises has merit. It may prove nothing , it may prove a link, it may prove there is no link.

There is the question of whether hibernation extends the life expectancy of the tortoise. There is the counter argument that the tortoise isn't "living" during the hibernation. If you look at other chelonian with a natural life expectancy shorter than a hibernating tortoise species but with a similar natural life cycle there are pieces of evidence that suggest the withholding of hibernation has a significant impact on the life expectancy of captive animals. Kinosternon Flavescens is a well studied species whose cycle is not dissimilar to a hibernating tortoise in terms of annual activity.
They appear to have a much reduced lifespan when kept in normal captive turtle conditions with hibernation withheld. They are hardly a delicate species so I don't think it is captivity itself that has a life shortening effect. But there is the question of having a “life” during the enforced inactivity periods and also why periods of decreased activity and metabolism should significantly increase the number of years an animal reaches.

At the opposite end are the Aldabras, Radiated and Galapagos; the longest living vertebrates on the planet; which of course, don't hibernate.

Time and time again we see the word "confidence" used in conjunction with hibernation. Overconfidence is as deadly as lack of confidence. I would always recommend that people do their utmost to understand the process of hibernation; the physiology and the limits. It can be undertaken successfully; given a lot of thought and research. Is it a necessity? In my honest opinion, no. Is it of benefit? Possibly (and yes in the context of reproduction). Can it be successful? Certainly.

I've spoken with several people regarding a method I've used for young box turtles; not dissimilar to your own cooling methods. With a bit of thought and a limited duration I could see this as a useful substitute to full hibernation for tortoises and would like to hear how you undertake this sometime.

It's a sad fact; young tortoises don't all make it regardless of methods. You can give them the best conditions possible, you can do everything you think is right and it still happens.

[Kirkie]

I don't have a lot of info on captive Yellow muds but I do have two captive yellow muds. I'm kinda reverse seasoning them. They spend the winter in the warm and spend the rest of the time open to the vaguries of the british summer. The do seem to have a limited activity range outdoors. Too hot or too cold and they lie dormant on land. If I get them over ten years old, I'll have a party.

Theres a lot to be learned from turtles and turtle people regarding hibernation. Rom Muryn follows a similar line in turtle care to my own tortoise ideas. Rom, as well as pulling off some serious feats of engineering, has insight into the suitability for outdoor living and *hibernation of not species, but individual animals and how to pull this off sucessfully.

The recent book "life in a shell" by donald C Jackson has further insights. He comes across as a cold hearted SOB in terms of some experimentation (if you are a keeper) but he's a physiologist not a herper something that you've summised above. A clear, unbiased assessment is often lacking in tortoise research on emotive subjects.

[Alan1]

Regarding the (unproven) 'shorter lives' thing.. IF it was the case that their lives were shortened by not hibernating them, would there be much difference between a tort living 75 years but spending the equivalent of 25 of those years hibernating and a tort living 50 years and not hibernating?

People who think that they are doing the natural thing by hibernating their Horsfield would really have to be hibernating it for up to 9 months to be following 'the wild' so doing it for only 3 months is not really that.

Everything that wild animals do is done to survive, they do what they do to stay alive. They eat, sleep and breed and that's it.

Stells' Horsfield dug down when it got cold in the UK and reappeared when the temperatures dictated, 4 or 5 months later. If she had lived much further north then it simply would have remained down there longer

[Kirkie]

The nine month hibernation of a Horsfield tortoise is a misconception. The study its resulted from was mainly concerned with the feeding and activity patterns. It came up with an average of <65 days per annum when the Horsfields actually ate. The other 10 months they were not always in hibernation. The study is often quoted to show how easy it is to overfeed Horsfields but its how infrequently they eat not how long they hibernate. Captive Horsfields kept in optimal conditions have a higher energy requirement than a wild Horsfield that spends unsuitable hot or cold days dormant.
Andy Highfield is seeing similar things with Spanish Graeca, winter dormancy periods where recorded ground temperature far exceed those thought to induce a hibernation state in tortoises. He has asked the question "is this true hibernation"?

Interesting times.