UPDATE w/ new pix: Redfoot indoor habitat and behavior

[pawsplus]

Hi guys -- I've not posted for a while but I've been checking in. Hope all are well!

So I have a question re: Beasley, my 10 year old female redfoot (captive bred in FL -- I live in Tennessee). I'm experienced and know what I'm doing, but honestly, winter is always a problem for me. Beasley is outside in her awesome 10x30 foot pen from April - early Oct. and is quite happy, but getting the environment right in the winter is not easy. Sometimes I envy you guys w/ hibernators!

I need to get new pix of her newly planted indoor pen, but here are the pre-planted ones:



It's 4' x 6' and now has 4 nice plants (including one fern that is really nice and droopy, making a great hiding area). She has a little pool. There is a basking light over one of the 4 tubs (temps run 85-90F under the light), and a blue light on the other side (creating another small, warmer area (80F or so). I have a pressure sprayer and I spray the substrate (cypress mulch) 2X a day to keep the humidity up. I don't have a good hygrometer, but given the open top of the pen, it would be hard to keep it REALLY humid all the time. However, it is certainly more humid in spots (microclimates), esp. under the fern where the substrate is always moist from top down 6". Beasley can thermoregulate and choose more or less humid areas.

But she's not very active. This is always my experience in the winter, and I feel as if no matter what I do, I can't provide a great environment. The new pen is SO nice, but she's still mostly hanging out in one corner. I get her up in the a.m. and give her a warm soaking, and then she usually eats pretty well, but goes back to her corner.

Thoughts on how I can make things better so she'll be more active??? This just drives me crazy!!

Oh, and although I usually use a UV (mercury vapor) lamp, I have not put it in this year - -just an incandescent bulb. This b/c I have read that the thinking is that RFs, being more forest dwellers, prefer less light and that the UV lamps may provide too much (and damage their eyes). In the past I have found that using the UV lamp seemed to increase Beasley's activity, so I'm thinking of putting it back in. Opinions???

Thanks!

[JustAnja]

Could you pick up a piece of plexiglass sheeting to cover a good piece of the enclosure to increase humidity? It would definitely hold in the moisture and raise humidity if you could.

As for lighting, why not use one or two of the compact UVB lights out there designed for the forest dwellers? I know the ReptiGlo 5.0 is not as bright as their 10.0 that is designed for desert dwellers.


You can get them pretty reasonably here at this site. http://estore.websitepros.com/1861310/Detail.bok?no=168

* Ideal for all tropical and sub-tropical reptiles * High UVB output * Effective up to 30 cm (12") * Provides necessary UVB rays for optimal calcium metabolism * Stimulates appetite, activity and reproductive behaviour through UVA radiation * Recommended in combination with Repti Glo 2.0 for a higher visual light output The Exo Terra Repti Glo 5.0 has a moderate to high UVB output, similar to that of shady environments such as rain forests and other tropical locations. Reptiles living in these habitats receive less UV radiation because of the many climatological conditions (fairly high humidity, changes in weather, etc) that prevent direct sunlight from reaching them or their basking sites.

[Toni115]

hi Elizabeth, my red is very inactive at the moment even though temps and humidity are fine!! I am not sure, maybe it is a winter thing? or perhaps we both have very lazy torts

Just lately mine has started to stay in his house for most of the day and he suddenly comes active around 4-5pm has something to eat, crashes around for a couple of hours and then goes back to bed I was also a bit concerned, although he seems ok??

I have also started to turn off my UV a lot earlier, for the same reasons you stated, but this has not made a great deal of difference so it cant be that

Anyone else??????

[tort71]

Take a thermometer and place it on the substrate and take some readings. Do this all around the cage. I'm guessing she is staying in the corner where the basking lamp is? You may need to add a ceramic heat emitter to warm up the area better. RF's don't bask, and you want to keep all the heat sources on one side of the cage to make a proper heat gradient. It also doesn't seem like she is getting any UVB?

If you are able to mount a 4' shoplight above I would recommend getting the ZooMed 48" Reptisun 10.0 bulbs. Search online, you should be able to get them for ~$15 a piece plus shipping, get 2. Pet stores charge $40 per bulb, so don't waste your money. If you can't mount a shoplight, ZooMed makes a CFL Reptisun 10.0 UVB bulb. I'd get 2 and you can put them in clamp lamps.

For heat, I'd grab 2 of these: http://www.petsolutions.com/T-Rex-He...C40002053.aspx

Mount them on the top left and bottom left corners. This should create a good heat gradient. Test with a thermometer at the substrate level and adjust as needed.

Your substrate looks to be some kind of mulch (cypress?). Redfoots believe it or not will burrow and hide and it is important that they can. Try using a mix of 50/50 Coir (Bedabeast, Eco Earth compressed bricks) and Cypress. This will help keep the humidity levels up as well. It's hard to tell from the picture you posted but the water dish looks just big enough for the tortoise to fit in. Get a bigger dish. Humidity is nothing but the amount of water in the air. Having a bigger water dish will increase air humidity. Also you might want to consider forgetting about misting and instead just pour warm water as evenly as possible near the hot end. Then mix with your hands so the substrate is uniformly moist. Just don't over-saturate it, you want it to be moist not waterlogged. Then through the week check on the moisture and add more warm water as needed.

[pawsplus]

Originally Posted by tort71

Take a thermometer and place it on the substrate and take some readings. Do this all around the cage. I'm guessing she is staying in the corner where the basking lamp is? You may need to add a ceramic heat emitter to warm up the area better. RF's don't bask, and you want to keep all the heat sources on one side of the cage to make a proper heat gradient. It also doesn't seem like she is getting any UVB?

As I said, I did do the temps all around, and no, she's not hanging out under EITHER light (the basking light or the blue light). She's in a corner where daytime temp is 72F or so, nighttime 60-62F. She occasionally goes to the warmer end, but not much.

And as I said, no, she's getting no UVB b/c there is a school of thought that redfoots don't need them. I think I said all this in my orig. post. In the past she has had a mercury vapor UVB lamp, but so far this year I have no added it (b/c of the school of thought previously mentioned). Part of what I am asking is who uses UVB w/ RFs and who does not?

Your substrate looks to be some kind of mulch (cypress?). Redfoots believe it or not will burrow and hide and it is important that they can.

I'm well aware of this. Under the cypress mulch is a soil/sand mixture and she burrows down a bit when she chooses to. She has never been much of a burrower, but scrapes down a bit. There is 6" or so of soil and an inch or 2 of mulch on top of that.

It's hard to tell from the picture you posted but the water dish looks just big enough for the tortoise to fit in. Get a bigger dish. Humidity is nothing but the amount of water in the air. Having a bigger water dish will increase air humidity.

Her pool is 14" in diameter, and Beas is 8.5" SCL. So I think it's fine.

Also you might want to consider forgetting about misting and instead just pour warm water as evenly as possible near the hot end. Then mix with your hands so the substrate is uniformly moist. Just don't over-saturate it, you want it to be moist not waterlogged. Then through the week check on the moisture and add more warm water as needed.

I do this when I water the plants (I water the entire thing, not just where the plants are). That is 1-2X a week. Then I spray the substate and plant leaves daily.

[tort71]

Originally Posted by pawsplus

As I said, I did do the temps all around, and no, she's not hanging out under EITHER light (the basking light or the blue light). She's in a corner where daytime temp is 72F or so, nighttime 60-62F. She occasionally goes to the warmer end, but not much.

Either way there should be some kind of heat gradient established. Not just a focused area that gets 85-90 degrees. Basking lights were never meant to be used for heating, but to provide a direct area where a reptile can go under and warm up. It doesn't warm up the enclosure. What's the point of the blue light? Is it a heat lamp or just a normal light?

Also the night temps are too low for a redfoot. They shouldn't be lower than 70F!

Originally Posted by pawsplus

And as I said, no, she's getting no UVB b/c there is a school of thought that redfoots don't need them. I think I said all this in my orig. post. In the past she has had a mercury vapor UVB lamp, but so far this year I have no added it (b/c of the school of thought previously mentioned). Part of what I am asking is who uses UVB w/ RFs and who does not?

You did not mention any of this in your first post. What is the reasoning behind this "school of thought" that your tortoise doesn't need UVB? When tortoises are kept indoors it is important to provide both artificial UVB and an oral D3 supplement (RepCal w/ D3), no matter the type of tortoise.

Originally Posted by pawsplus

I'm well aware of this. Under the cypress mulch is a soil/sand mixture and she burrows down a bit when she chooses to. She has never been much of a burrower, but scrapes down a bit. There is 6" or so of soil and an inch or 2 of mulch on top of that.

Sounds good then.

Originally Posted by pawsplus

Her pool is 14" in diameter, and Beas is 8.5" SCL. So I think it's fine.

Still if you want to increase the humidity in the enclosure, add a bigger body of water and it will increase.

Originally Posted by pawsplus

I do this when I water the plants (I water the entire thing, not just where the plants are). That is 1-2X a week. Then I spray the substate and plant leaves daily.

Sounds good.

[pawsplus]

Originally Posted by tort71

Either way there should be some kind of heat gradient established. Not just a focused area that gets 85-90 degrees. Basking lights were never meant to be used for heating, but to provide a direct area where a reptile can go under and warm up. It doesn't warm up the enclosure. What's the point of the blue light? Is it a heat lamp or just a normal light?

It's just your average blue 75 watt incandescent reptile light. I could use a ceramic heat emitter -- and I may switch to one, but the fixture I'm using right now for this purpose won't handle one. There IS a gradient--not sure why you think there is not. The temps are not consistent side to side, no, but in an open enclosure this large it is not easy to be that consistent. I can't heat the entire enclosure -- that's just not physically possible in an open table arrangement. We talk about how horrible vivaria are -- but this is the downside of tortoise tables.

Also the night temps are too low for a redfoot. They shouldn't be lower than 70F!

I'm sorry, but that's not true at all! Not for an adult. They can happily go down to 60F. And as I said, if she CHOOSES to be warmer at night, she could go under the blue light. She rarely chooses this even though the blue light is on 24/7.

You did not mention any of this in your first post.

Yeah, I did:

Originally Posted by My original post

Oh, and although I usually use a UV (mercury vapor) lamp, I have not put it in this year - -just an incandescent bulb. This b/c I have read that the thinking is that RFs, being more forest dwellers, prefer less light and that the UV lamps may provide too much (and damage their eyes). In the past I have found that using the UV lamp seemed to increase Beasley's activity, so I'm thinking of putting it back in. Opinions???

???

What is the reasoning behind this "school of thought" that your tortoise doesn't need UVB? When tortoises are kept indoors it is important to provide both artificial UVB and an oral D3 supplement (RepCal w/ D3), no matter the type of tortoise.

Well, what I'm saying is that not everyone buys that. Redfoots are omnivores, and hence, do need some animal protein. I feed a small amount of rehydrated cat food a few times a week. That provides D3. Additionally, Beasley is outside for 8 mos of the year and gets plenty of UVB from the sun then. There are a number of people, including some on this board, who feel that commercial UVB lighting is too harsh for tortoises meant to live in forests/on the edge of forests. They have larger eyes than species meant to live in the sunlight and their eyes can be damaged by UVB lighting. That's the reasoning.

Still if you want to increase the humidity in the enclosure, add a bigger body of water and it will increase.

The tubs in my enclosure are 2'x4'. In order for Beasley to be able to walk around the pond, it can't really be much larger than it is. And I do think the humidity is probably good as it is.

[pawsplus]

I think this guy is a nut personally, but his RFs look good and he uses no UVB.

http://www.turtletary.com/redfootcare.htm

I am not saying he's right -- I am asking what other RF keepers think about this. It makes some sense to me, and I am investigating.

[alicia]

sorry but through reading this i cant help thinking tour arguing against yourself, because your asking questions to be answered but arguing against them?????

and about the uv thing, all tortoises need uv for healthy shells, it should be placed on the side of the table, you can provide loads of couverage by plants and hides so they can get away from the uv light. but they still need it,

[Toni115]

Tort71 - Redfoots dont bask?????? Mine does