What type of Graeca are these ?. - Page 2

Malwa85 · 11-04-2010, 12:33 AM

Would you know of any good links about T.g.marokkensis, as I'd like to research them a little more?.

**egyptiandan64** · 11-04-2010, 12:43 AM

Do a google search of Moroccan spur-thighed tortoise or Moroccan greek tortoise. The old name was T.g.graeca, so you will get more info searching Moroccan.

Danny

EJ · 11-04-2010, 01:30 AM

You never cease to amaze me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by egyptiandan64

Nope not T.g.soussensis and no such thing as T.g.floweri

They are both Moroccans, T.g.marokkensis, first one is a female and second one is a male.

Danny

EJ · 11-04-2010, 03:36 AM

It's a male and a female and they look like they were raised under similar conditions.

Do you know the specifics as to the history? If they are captive raised which I suspect they are... all bets are off... They are T graeca... end of story.

If you can get a hint of where they were imported from... you have a chance of getting a general ID.

There are probably more current authors who recognise the 2 subspecies mentioned.

I believe they are all T. graeca and there are different races. If you can't look at the animal and tell the difference it is pointless to call it a different species... we won't even discuss subspecies.

It would seem that certain members on this list follow the opinion of some tortoise keepers who think very highly of themselves and their own opinion. Not many professionals feel the same way.

As to the ID... they are very unique but without a detailed history of the animals one way or the other... it's just a WAG.

Malwa85 · 11-04-2010, 11:00 AM

First off, there is a noticable difference between the two torts, one having 5 vertebral scutes,like all of the different testudo that I have,and the other having only four.The one with the four vertebral scutes also has more upturned and flared marginal scutes( not a common trait in north African Graecas) .One of these guys we believe may have been wild caught (previous owner was of the same opinion) while the other came to us with paper work.We know that they are T.Graeca and they probably are Moroccans but can there be that much of a difference between male & female.Would it be possible that you could hook me up with a link to a professional resource ( that you would use yourself )so that I can find out a little bit more .

**egyptiandan64** · 11-04-2010, 01:18 PM

The less scutes on the female are either genetic or temperature induced during incubation. The flaring could be put down to captive growth. Does it say on her cert. that she was CB in the UK?

Danny

EJ · 11-04-2010, 01:51 PM

The group is just to common looking between the races and too variable within the races in most cases.

The animals you have do look different between each other but that could be because they are male and female. Also... if they are captive raised there is usually going to be a difference between the captive animals and those you would find in the wild.

Those animals you have seem to have been yard raised and as such the shells appear quite worn... leading to a loss of pattern which can sometimes be helpful in IDing to a general level.

The one single source for the Testudo that is currently available is H. Vetters book. He gives multiple examples of individuals from specific locations. That is going to be the most useful to the general keeper. I don't agree with the taxonomy but there is no surprise there.

Malwa85 · 11-04-2010, 02:27 PM

Hi Danny ,the paper work for the male states that it was captive bred in the Czech Republic , born in 1995 and imported to Germany in May 2000.The female did not have any paper work.
EJ ,thanks for the heads up on H.Vetters book, I'll definetly take a look.

**egyptiandan64** · 11-04-2010, 05:38 PM

Hoger Vetter's book Turtles & Tortoises of the World Vol. 1 is a very good book for pictures, but like Ed I don't agree with his taxonomy. The one problem with the book is that there are no range maps (which was fixed in subsequent volumes)
Can you take larger pictures of the female and with a lighter background (white maybe) or outside. More a carapace shot from down on the tortoise and not from the back.

Danny

EJ · 11-04-2010, 06:05 PM

The important point to note that with any of the Testudo species the ID of specific races within the species are going to be a wag without locality information. This includes the greeks, the Hermans, the Marginateds and the Russians.

I mention this because if you are intending to breed any of these species in captivity there is very little chance you know where they came from unless you purchased them as a group. There are few keepers in the grand scheme of things who can do this.

If you try to pair up what you've got there is very little chance the average person is going to be able to properly match what they've with any certainty.

The keeper who tells you they KNOW the ID of a tortoise among those species that have such a huge range that there are 'distinct' populations... I'd be careful purchasing 'known locality species'.

A little side note... I'm not trying to belittle Danny. He just happens to have an opinion I strongly disagree with. It's more of the way it is usually phrased and presented than anything else.

There's a reason these species in addition to Stars, Leopards and Redfoots are so hotly debated. That is because of the reason mentioned previously.

11-04-2010, 12:43 AM	#12
egyptiandan64 Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 14,171	Do a google search of Moroccan spur-thighed tortoise or Moroccan greek tortoise. The old name was T.g.graeca, so you will get more info searching Moroccan. Danny __________________

11-04-2010, 03:36 AM	#14
EJ Senior Member Adult Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 8,277	It's a male and a female and they look like they were raised under similar conditions. Do you know the specifics as to the history? If they are captive raised which I suspect they are... all bets are off... They are T graeca... end of story. If you can get a hint of where they were imported from... you have a chance of getting a general ID. There are probably more current authors who recognise the 2 subspecies mentioned. I believe they are all T. graeca and there are different races. If you can't look at the animal and tell the difference it is pointless to call it a different species... we won't even discuss subspecies. It would seem that certain members on this list follow the opinion of some tortoise keepers who think very highly of themselves and their own opinion. Not many professionals feel the same way. As to the ID... they are very unique but without a detailed history of the animals one way or the other... it's just a WAG. __________________ Ed Tortoise Keerpers @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tortoise_Keepers and http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/284442591651347/ Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

11-04-2010, 01:18 PM	#16
egyptiandan64 Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 14,171	The less scutes on the female are either genetic or temperature induced during incubation. The flaring could be put down to captive growth. Does it say on her cert. that she was CB in the UK? Danny __________________

11-04-2010, 01:51 PM	#17
EJ Senior Member Adult Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 8,277	The group is just to common looking between the races and too variable within the races in most cases. The animals you have do look different between each other but that could be because they are male and female. Also... if they are captive raised there is usually going to be a difference between the captive animals and those you would find in the wild. Those animals you have seem to have been yard raised and as such the shells appear quite worn... leading to a loss of pattern which can sometimes be helpful in IDing to a general level. The one single source for the Testudo that is currently available is H. Vetters book. He gives multiple examples of individuals from specific locations. That is going to be the most useful to the general keeper. I don't agree with the taxonomy but there is no surprise there. __________________ Ed Tortoise Keerpers @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tortoise_Keepers and http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/284442591651347/ Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

11-04-2010, 05:38 PM	#19
egyptiandan64 Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 14,171	Hoger Vetter's book Turtles & Tortoises of the World Vol. 1 is a very good book for pictures, but like Ed I don't agree with his taxonomy. The one problem with the book is that there are no range maps (which was fixed in subsequent volumes) Can you take larger pictures of the female and with a lighter background (white maybe) or outside. More a carapace shot from down on the tortoise and not from the back. Danny __________________

11-04-2010, 12:33 AM	#11
Malwa85 Member Incubating Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Ireland Posts: 187	Would you know of any good links about T.g.marokkensis, as I'd like to research them a little more?.

11-04-2010, 11:00 AM	#15
Malwa85 Member Incubating Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Ireland Posts: 187	First off, there is a noticable difference between the two torts, one having 5 vertebral scutes,like all of the different testudo that I have,and the other having only four.The one with the four vertebral scutes also has more upturned and flared marginal scutes( not a common trait in north African Graecas) .One of these guys we believe may have been wild caught (previous owner was of the same opinion) while the other came to us with paper work.We know that they are T.Graeca and they probably are Moroccans but can there be that much of a difference between male & female.Would it be possible that you could hook me up with a link to a professional resource ( that you would use yourself )so that I can find out a little bit more .

11-04-2010, 02:27 PM	#18
Malwa85 Member Incubating Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Ireland Posts: 187	Hi Danny ,the paper work for the male states that it was captive bred in the Czech Republic , born in 1995 and imported to Germany in May 2000.The female did not have any paper work. EJ ,thanks for the heads up on H.Vetters book, I'll definetly take a look.

11-04-2010, 06:05 PM	#20
EJ Senior Member Adult Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 8,277	The important point to note that with any of the Testudo species the ID of specific races within the species are going to be a wag without locality information. This includes the greeks, the Hermans, the Marginateds and the Russians. I mention this because if you are intending to breed any of these species in captivity there is very little chance you know where they came from unless you purchased them as a group. There are few keepers in the grand scheme of things who can do this. If you try to pair up what you've got there is very little chance the average person is going to be able to properly match what they've with any certainty. The keeper who tells you they KNOW the ID of a tortoise among those species that have such a huge range that there are 'distinct' populations... I'd be careful purchasing 'known locality species'. A little side note... I'm not trying to belittle Danny. He just happens to have an opinion I strongly disagree with. It's more of the way it is usually phrased and presented than anything else. There's a reason these species in addition to Stars, Leopards and Redfoots are so hotly debated. That is because of the reason mentioned previously. __________________ Ed Tortoise Keerpers @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tortoise_Keepers and http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/284442591651347/ Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

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