Do You Hibernate Your Med Torts

[Kenneth]

Originally Posted by EJ

It would be interesting to see those that have the honesty to post when thier tortoise died in hibernation. I suspect that those that have had tortoises die in hibernation are not going to report it because it would indicate a failure.

...and yes... hibernation does kill tortoises... Suboptimal conditions will tend to do this.

Fortunately I cannot speak out of personal expericience, however I can cite a recent example of a tortoise dying "when in hibernation" ( not because of being in hibernation!)

In one case it was a tortoise in an outside enclosure, that hadn't been digging deep enough. Frost got to it and the animal died. It's eyes had been destroyed completely and as scientifically substantiated it's blood most likely crystallized. A painful and horrible death.. and obviously, the owner was devastated. Unfortunately, this death during hibernation was a human error. The owner should have checked the animals more thoroughly, to make sure the animals would have been out of frost reach.

The "suboptimal" condition was a temperature below 2 - 5 degrees. If the environment ( Box / Fridge ) had been insulated, this death most likely would've been prevented.

Fortunately, optimal conditions are easy to achieve and maintain during hibernation.. Just use a controllable environment like a fridge or a box


If you don't mind me saying:
I find it a bit odd that you just ask for examples of animals dying when in hibernation... In this way, you only want to point out how "dangerous" hibernating them is. This obviously gives a distorted picture.
It would be quite fair to ask if "those who have lost a tortoise during over-wintering" would come out and share this with us as well... For comparison..
What would you conclude if the number of deceased animals during overwintering exceeds the number of deaths during hibernation??
Overwintering would be more harmful then hibernating them?
Just think about that..

[swad1000]

Originally Posted by EJ

It would be interesting to see those that have the honesty to post when thier tortoise died in hibernation. I suspect that those that have had tortoises die in hibernation are not going to report it because it would indicate a failure.

...and yes... hibernation does kill tortoises... Suboptimal conditions will tend to do this.

So you say Ed, any thing to back this up?

[Kenneth]

hibernation does kill tortoises... Suboptimal conditions will tend to do this.

Any condition that isn't the exact natural condition is suboptimal, don't you agree?

[andy1]

I Hibernate mine, have done now for 6 years(in the fridge), ive never lost 1 .

only personally know of 3 people( in the last 8 years)who have had torts die in hibernation.

1 was from a rat attack while natually hibernating in the bottom of a greenhouse(3 others seriously hurt)

2 a very knowledgeable lady i know lost 2 while naturally hibernating,( it was assumed that these older torts and our eratic temps meant they probably hadnt buried themselves deep enougth.

3 ...Well you cant help some people. despit attending a "hibernation talk" at out local club this person thought it was ok to hibernate a small 2 yr old hermans in a cardboard box , inside a plastic cat carrier in a wooden shed. over the coldest winter we have seen for years. to moniter the temp they used a standard glass wall thermometer(without min/max) standing next to it. Needless to say the poor thing started to smell a little when placed under the heatlamp when they tried to wake it up.

At our club we recommend hibernation for those who are confident, but we never say it is with out risk,But if managed correctly that risk is very/very low.

Andy

[fats]

I hibernate mine, if I dont I tend to find they get confused and try to hibernate themselves around june, also it's nice to reclaim the dining room for the christmas period

[EJ]

The first sentence in the second paragraph tells the reader that the tortoise died as a result of hibernation... it did not dig deep enough or did not have the proper conditions to survive hibernation. The precise problem is the keeper did not provide enough options for the tortoise to safely hibernate on its own. The tortoises death was a direct result of an attempt at hibernation... trial and error... for what reason... because they do it in nature????? I don't think that is a good enough reason.

As to freezing and pain... that's another debate all together.

I guess your overwintering question would be a fair one except that in one instance the keeper is providing suboptimal conditions to force an animal into survival mode and in the other instance the keeper is expected to provide optimal conditions to ensure survival.

To your last question... I would conclude that the keeper did not have enough information to provide the proper environment to ensure survival. It really doesn't matter if it was over winter or over summer or over whenever.

To SWAAD... I didn't even have to hunt for this one. There are over 10 years of archives for many groups... I'm sure you can find some more examples if you are that interested... again... check out the posts here around February or March... sometimes earlier.

Originally Posted by Kenneth

Fortunately I cannot speak out of personal expericience, however I can cite a recent example of a tortoise dying "when in hibernation" ( not because of being in hibernation!)

In one case it was a tortoise in an outside enclosure, that hadn't been digging deep enough. Frost got to it and the animal died. It's eyes had been destroyed completely and as scientifically substantiated it's blood most likely crystallized. A painful and horrible death.. and obviously, the owner was devastated. Unfortunately, this death during hibernation was a human error. The owner should have checked the animals more thoroughly, to make sure the animals would have been out of frost reach.

The "suboptimal" condition was a temperature below 2 - 5 degrees. If the environment ( Box / Fridge ) had been insulated, this death most likely would've been prevented.

Fortunately, optimal conditions are easy to achieve and maintain during hibernation.. Just use a controllable environment like a fridge or a box


If you don't mind me saying:
I find it a bit odd that you just ask for examples of animals dying when in hibernation... In this way, you only want to point out how "dangerous" hibernating them is. This obviously gives a distorted picture.
It would be quite fair to ask if "those who have lost a tortoise during over-wintering" would come out and share this with us as well... For comparison..
What would you conclude if the number of deceased animals during overwintering exceeds the number of deaths during hibernation??
Overwintering would be more harmful then hibernating them?
Just think about that..

[EJ]

I definately do not agree on your statement. You are seriously asking the wrong person on that point. I've kept many species that are not 'naturally' found in the particular area where they were being kept. I use manufactured diets. I keep many tortoises in an artificial environment...

Again... while some tortoises may brumate in the wild they do not have a choice. If they were given the choice they would not brumate as proven by the example of those tortoises whose range extends through different climatic zones. You can reference those testudo that even range from lower to higher elevations.

Originally Posted by Kenneth

Any condition that isn't the exact natural condition is suboptimal, don't you agree?

[EJ]

It depend on the situation... sometimes yes and sometimes no.

[Alan1]

Of course, natural conditions are not necessarily optimal conditions. They may survive in natural conditions but may thrive in unnatural conditions

[JackieL]

No one answered my question .