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Old 22-06-2014, 09:46 PM   #1
Turvy Turtle
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Exclamation Desperate for help with sick turtle...

Hi, first of all I would like to apologise for what is probably going to be a very long thread, but I want to give as much info as possible. I am really hoping someone can give me some advice on what is wrong with my Map turtle, Turvy. I had previously thought he was a Mississippi Map, now think he may be a False Map or Ouachita Map. Turvy is about 4 years old and is approx 3 1/2 ".

Turvy's problem started a few weeks ago, when cleaning out his tank I noticed something not right with his shell. When I ran my finger over his first right-side marginal scute I noticed something white and stringy. It was just
a tiny amount and there was no smell but I noticed there was a small missing portion of the scute that was blackish in colour underneath. I googled madly to find the nearest reptile vet in this area and made an appoinment for him.
The vet seemed to have reasonable knowledge of turtles so I was quite happy to go to him. I told the vet that I thought he may have injured himself when diving off the above-tank basking area, by diving straight into a piece of fake resin driftwood we have in the tank. I had heard a bit of a clatter when I had suprised him up there a few weeks previously. The vet agreed this could be due to trauma and gave me Povidone to clean the area with twice a day and oral Baytril to give on his food, 3 drops daily. The second scute felt a little loose also, he said, if this should come off I was told I should bring him in, but if it didn't, bring him back in 2 weeks.

Everything seemed to go well and I took him back after 2 weeks, which was last Thursday. While the vet was examining him the loose layer on the second scute came of, it was an off-white colour underneath and porous looking. The vet said to keep treating with Povidone once per day and that it
was possible another layer might fall off. Turvy doesn't like me very much atm for taking him out of his tank constantly and tries to hide under the filter intake pipe when he sees me coming, but he has always liked to try to force himself into areas he shouldn't, like between the Zoo Med Floating Dock, when we had one, and the side of the tank. When I went to feed him today, I noticed he has actually lost some of his marginal scutes. They don't look broken, more like they have crumbled off, probably from him trying to push under the intake pipe. The area is black/silvery, has no white discharge of any kind and doesn't smell, but it does feel soft.

I am really scared for my turtle and would like to know if someone has any idea what is wrong with him. I will be calling a vet
tomorrow, but I am not sure if I should go back to the previous vet as something he said at the last appontment has me unsure if he knows as much
about turtles as he seems to. When I asked him if the black area under the missing scute was bone, and why it was black,
he said it wasn't bone, that there is no bone in that area, the bone starts further back. I have spent hours googling today
to find info on what may be wrong with Turvy and have find numerous people that have turtles that have lost marginal scutes
down to the bone, which suggest the marginal scutes do indeed cover bone. If someone could answer that question for me
definitively, it would at least give me an idea of whether I can take Turvy to the same vet, or if I need to find another one
with more experience with turtles.

I really don't understand how things can have gotten so bad so quickly. I check his shell religiously for anything suspicious and know some of the signs to look for, like white discharge, bad smell, soft areas of shell etc and have seen nothing until this started 2 weeks ago, and his scute had already started to come off, leaving something black underneath. Is it possible
that this is down to trauma and that area of scute/bone was damaged badly and died or does he have some horrible infection that has been quietly speading through him with no visible signs?

I have found only one other post where someone mentions something that sounds similar to Turvy's shell problems
http://www.turtleforum.com/forum/upl...owtopic=108337

I will try to add photos below of Turvy's shell and the pieces I found in the aquarium, hope that is ok, if I can figure out how to do it! Many thanks!








Last edited by egyptiandan64; 22-06-2014 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 22-06-2014, 10:05 PM   #2
egyptiandan64
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It's time for a new vet

No need to take your turtle to the vets as he'she is just fine At some point in time your turtle had shellrot in that area and some of the bone died (the white bits you have pictures of). When the dead scute material on top of the dead bone came off it made it easy for the bone to come off. Everything that I see says it's all long healed. The black bit is new scute material (put down under the dead bone) on top of live bone.

If you can get a picture of the side of the head (with the head out), I can tell you what kind of map turtle you have.

Danny
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Old 22-06-2014, 11:12 PM   #3
Turvy Turtle
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Smile What a relief....

Wow, thank you so much for the quick reply , I have been in tears all day, thinking he will probably die ! Just want to clarify a few things if that is ok!

I need a new vet then? I did suspect this but it is nice to know for sure. There are no reptile vets near me, unfortunately the nearest is 40 something miles away in Boston (I am in Lincoln) and I don't know if they have any particular experience with turtles either. I shall have to make some calls to find a reliable one, I think, as it makes any problems like this more stressful when you don't have full confidence in your vet.

Sorry if it seems like I am asking about something you have already answered, but I am a bit of a hypochondriac both with my own health and on behalf of my pets too .

The first scute near his head to be affected definite seems quite firm and may have regrowth, but the other area that crumbled away at some point today is definitely soft, I could probably scrape more away if I wanted to (I don't), it seems rotten, when you look at it, especially on pictures 3 and 4. Do you think he could lose more from this area during his escapades with the filter intake (I will be cutting that shorter tomorrow)? Is there any possibility of an ongoing infection there still? I have been looking at the first picture and am now wondering if he may have a problem with shedding, there seem to be deeper grooves between the scutes than I have ever noticed before.... sorry, still find it hard to let myself relax and stop looking for problems!

This is the only photo I have handy of his head and neck, and there is absolutely no chance of him letting me take one atm, as he is far too unhappy with me



I just want to thank you for putting my mind at rest. I really thought he might die, even though he seems to be acting normally, other than being a bit more skittish than usual, though that is due to me removing him twice a day to paint him with Povidone! To know that he isn't in any imminent danger of death is such a relief!!!!! Would it be a good idea to continue with the Povidone once a day as directed by the previous vet? I think I will keep an eye on him for the rest of the week, to make sure nothing changes while I try to find a vet who has more experience with turtles. It would give me more peace of mind to take him eventually, but at least there is no immediate rush and I can stop panicking (and googling ).

Again, thank you very, very much!!

Last edited by egyptiandan64; 22-06-2014 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 23-06-2014, 12:00 AM   #4
egyptiandan64
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He is a False Map turtle, Graptemys pseudogeographica pseudogeographica.

He will lose more scute and bone from under the first coastal and the first vertebral scutes (not all of it but some). He should also be shedding all his scutes at least once a year. The top layer of the scute is shed every year.
That said he is still just fine as it's already healed and just in the process of coming off. This has been healing for at least a year (if not longer).

Danny
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Old 23-06-2014, 12:58 AM   #5
Turvy Turtle
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So I have a False Map turtle

I think there may be a teeny tiny area on the next marginal scute affected too, as when you look at this area from underneath there is a pale grey area at the very edge. Only a tiny area compared to what was on the others, so maybe he won't lose anything there.

I still can't believe he has shellrot and I didn't know it . His shell had always seemed perfectly healthy, no soft areas, no white patches or other discolourations and certainly no smell How will I tell if he were to get it again? I do my best to keep his water clean, I test with an API test kit and do 25% water changes weekly and have a filter that can filter a tank 3-4 times larger than Turvy's! I'll be more paranoid than ever about shellrot now........

Is there any point in continuing with the povidone then if this is old and already healed?

He may never win any prizes from other people, but he is still the most beautiful turtle in the world to me, and both Turvy and I thank you from the bottom of our heart's for your kind advice!!

Tammy
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Old 23-06-2014, 07:28 AM   #6
ClareandCo
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What is the temperature under the basking light? It should be 10c warmer than the water, so 30c+ to encourage him climb out to bask
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Old 23-06-2014, 08:08 PM   #7
Turvy Turtle
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Post Basking Temps

Hi!

His water temp at the moment is 76-77°f and his basking temp is 93-94°f, which I think gives a 10°c difference when converted (sorry, I normally work in °f). His water is normally 73-74°f, but for some reason it has jumped up a bit in the last week and won't go down again, and that is with the heater unplugged, so it must be the weather. My thermometer has been acting up recently though, so I have ordered a new one in case I am getting bad readings.

During my panicked googling spree yesterday, I remember reading something that said that Map turtles like a higher basking heat, more into the high 90's, so I might check that out, but he normally basks quite a bit with the temps as they are, just not for the last 2 weeks. I'm not sure if that is because of the warmer water temp or because he is a bit more skittish than usual due to being taken out twice a day for Povidone treatment.
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Old 24-06-2014, 06:43 AM   #8
ClareandCo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turvy Turtle View Post
Hi!

His water temp at the moment is 76-77°f and his basking temp is 93-94°f, which I think gives a 10°c difference when converted (sorry, I normally work in °f). His water is normally 73-74°f, but for some reason it has jumped up a bit in the last week and won't go down again, and that is with the heater unplugged, so it must be the weather. My thermometer has been acting up recently though, so I have ordered a new one in case I am getting bad readings.

During my panicked googling spree yesterday, I remember reading something that said that Map turtles like a higher basking heat, more into the high 90's, so I might check that out, but he normally basks quite a bit with the temps as they are, just not for the last 2 weeks. I'm not sure if that is because of the warmer water temp or because he is a bit more skittish than usual due to being taken out twice a day for Povidone treatment.

This should help:

http://www.terrapin-info.co.uk/maps.php
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Old 24-06-2014, 09:04 PM   #9
Turvy Turtle
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Smile

Hey, thanks for the link! My basking temp seems fine, but water temp is too high at 77f, which I knew, but I can't seem to lower it. I normally have it at 73-74f, according to info found on ATP, though now it seems even this may be a tad to high. The heater has been off for days and though I know the weather has been warmer just recently, we used to live in the south of France which is far hotter than here and never had a problem. It is very frustrating........... he is still basking, though perhaps not quite as much, so maybe I'm worrying too much. Thanks for the info!
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