Ploughshare, Radiated and more ....

[justmeandmytortoise]

I am always saddened when I read of the illegal trade in tortoises and turtles. Today there is a newspaper report on Indonesia …
The article:
Endangered tortoises and turtles on sale for £1,000 at wildlife expo.

The most threatened species of tortoise in the world is being sold at a plant and animal exposition in Indonesia's capital.

Its sale highlights concerns about the rampant - and growing - illegal pet trade. Indonesia has become a major trading hub for endangered tortoises and freshwater turtles, including species from Africa, South America and Asia, said Chris Shepherd of Traffic, a British international wildlife monitoring network. While the government has passed legislation banning the trade, dealers continue to sell endangered species without fear of arrest or prosecution.

Those found at Jakarta's annual flora and fauna expo - held from 2 July until Monday, 2 August - included the world's most threatened ploughshare tortoise and critically endangered radiated tortoises, both from Madagascar, which were priced at more than £1,000.

Read more on
http://news.scotsman.com/world/Endan...-on.6449950.jp

http://news.aol.co.uk/environment-ne...32953786233009



Will we ever stop the illegal trade? I am still reading 'The Last Tortoise' ... if we continue as we are the future seems critical for them.

And something I had not heard of before – Traffic (a British international wildlife monitoring network) has anyone heard of this?

[Kirkie]

There was a political coup in Madagascar last year and as a result around 60% of foreign business (mainly the USA who see the coup as illegal) have withdrawn from Madagascar until they set up democratic elections. Organisations overseeing the conservation efforts have also had to pack up and leave. So the country is doing anything to get by. Illegal logging, poaching etc etc etc.
There are instances where centres running breeding programs for Ploughshere and Radiated tortoises have been broken into and tortoises, especially the young, have been stolen, presumably to feed the pet trade rather than feed the locals.

The feeling is that if they continue at the current rate not only will there be an ecological disaster but the removal of the remaining rain forest will leave the island open to the same kind of cataclysmic weather that was seen in Haiti. If the wild habitat is not conserved, whats the point of a captive breeding program, either in situ or elsewhere?


http://news.mongabay.com/2010/0405-hance_radiated.html
*
http://crimewatch.gaeatimes.com/2010...-slowly-33201/

[TortBabe]

This is soooo sad

[EJ]

A little food for thought...

Show the locals how to contain and breed (farm) the local wildlife... reptiles, mammals... birds... and capitalize on this comodity. Most species in MAD is listed as threatened or is on the ESL. Give it a little bit of thought.

The problem is that the rest of the world knows better... We'll just protect them.

Solution... alow free trade.

[Kirkie]

Its an idea but theres very little "fair trade" in the reptile business. Collectors are still crowbarring pancakes out of rock faces in Tanzania for a few dollars with the tortoises going on to sell for hundreds of dollars once they've changed hands a few time for an ever increasing price.

The problem with Radiata is that because theyre endangered, people want them. Because people want them, they're endangered. It's a vicious circle the rarer they become the more people want one regardless of where they come from.

Captive breeding in Europe is helping to supply animals but its never going to aid Radiateds to remain a Madagascan species. Its like breeding golden retrievers, they're going to end up as an animal that only exists as pets.
I agree thats it's not always a case of the West knows
best but in this case theres a distinct element of the
East cares least. Its the old status symbol thing again. Plus how do you regulate a legal trade in a country like Singapore where its illegal to keep reptiles in the first place?

[EJ]

There is a great deal of fair trade in the herp business because most know that if it is not fair trade their livelyhood is limited.

Those that smuggle and work outside the law are bound to finish in a short time.

You're wrong on the radiata... as they become more popular in the pet trade their value decreases. But new blood is always a comodity.

Originally Posted by Kirkie

Its an idea but theres very little "fair trade" in the reptile business. Collectors are still crowbarring pancakes out of rock faces in Tanzania for a few dollars with the tortoises going on to sell for hundreds of dollars once they've changed hands a few time for an ever increasing price.

The problem with Radiata is that because theyre endangered, people want them. Because people want them, they're endangered. It's a vicious circle the rarer they become the more people want one regardless of where they come from.

Captive breeding in Europe is helping to supply animals but its never going to aid Radiateds to remain a Madagascan species. Its like breeding golden retrievers, they're going to end up as an animal that only exists as pets.
I agree thats it's not always a case of the West knows
best but in this case theres a distinct element of the
East cares least. Its the old status symbol thing again. Plus how do you regulate a legal trade in a country like Singapore where its illegal to keep reptiles in the first place?

[justmeandmytortoise]

Originally Posted by Kirkie

Captive breeding in Europe is helping to supply animals but its never going to aid Radiateds to remain a Madagascan species. Its like breeding golden retrievers, they're going to end up as an animal that only exists as pets.
I agree thats it's not always a case of the West knows best but in this case theres a distinct element of the East cares least. Its the old status symbol thing again. Plus how do you regulate a legal trade in a country like Singapore where its illegal to keep reptiles in the first place?

I didn't know it is illegal to keep reptiles in some countries ... that you cannot keep a reptile in Singapore. So anyone with a tortoise in Singapore has it illegally and is breaking the law? Why can't they keep reptiles?

[Kirkie]

Originally Posted by EJ

Those that smuggle and work outside the law are bound to finish in a short time.

I take it you've not heard of Wong Keng Liang then

I dont think I'm wrong on the Radiata, their desirability is driven by their rarity, human nature. Theres mouths to feed all the way along the legal import chain, a european captive bred Radiata has a grand added to its price just by moving it to a shop on the south coast of the uk and thats a short hop.

The ban on reptile on Singapore is to protect endemic species.

[dorchard1978]

I have finished reading 'The Last Tortoise' recently and found it is interesting. It highlights the problems tortoises face to people who are unaware of the truth behind the pet industry and the continuing state of the wild areas that they inhabit. I am saddened to see that Madagascar is possibly in more trouble than I thought with the update on its political standings right now.
While at Uni we had to discuss the feasibility of keeping a species alive when there is no longer a wild population, or lack of naturally found ecology. It always disappoints me to hear that we would even consider allowing any species to disappear as their environment is destroyed. I always hope that our efforts to learn more regarding all husbandry of an animal could be well used in a future program of ecological reconstruction. I do understand that some species/ecosystems we do not know enough about to just recreate in a captive environment and hence why we need to do all we can to stop their environments being lost forever.
On the radiata front, I was surprised to visit my local reptile specialist and actually get the chance to examine, (in my hand), one of the two radiata torts that had brought in to the shop for general sale. Each was priced highly at £1700, but still a shame as anybody that fronted the money would just be able to buy such a rare tort. Obviously it makes it better that they were captive bred, but I couldn’t help thinking of these tennis ball sized torts disastrous story that currently faces their wild populations.
I am very interested in both the radiata and ploughshare tortoises and was hoping to fundraise on their behalf’s. As of yet I am unsure if the money would be well spent - or even get used for in a program that will help them long term at all! I will have to continue my homework on this one.

[EJ]

Not too long ago Radiata went for 3 to 4 thousand pounds. To see one in a shop in the first place and at 1700 pounds should tell you something. They are being bred by both keepers and zoos relatively frequently.

Your key point on the demise of these in the wild is not collecting but destruction of habitat.

Originally Posted by dorchard1978

I have finished reading 'The Last Tortoise' recently and found it is interesting. It highlights the problems tortoises face to people who are unaware of the truth behind the pet industry and the continuing state of the wild areas that they inhabit. I am saddened to see that Madagascar is possibly in more trouble than I thought with the update on its political standings right now.
While at Uni we had to discuss the feasibility of keeping a species alive when there is no longer a wild population, or lack of naturally found ecology. It always disappoints me to hear that we would even consider allowing any species to disappear as their environment is destroyed. I always hope that our efforts to learn more regarding all husbandry of an animal could be well used in a future program of ecological reconstruction. I do understand that some species/ecosystems we do not know enough about to just recreate in a captive environment and hence why we need to do all we can to stop their environments being lost forever.
On the radiata front, I was surprised to visit my local reptile specialist and actually get the chance to examine, (in my hand), one of the two radiata torts that had brought in to the shop for general sale. Each was priced highly at £1700, but still a shame as anybody that fronted the money would just be able to buy such a rare tort. Obviously it makes it better that they were captive bred, but I couldn’t help thinking of these tennis ball sized torts disastrous story that currently faces their wild populations.
I am very interested in both the radiata and ploughshare tortoises and was hoping to fundraise on their behalf’s. As of yet I am unsure if the money would be well spent - or even get used for in a program that will help them long term at all! I will have to continue my homework on this one.