Have you got an opinion on ?

[Ozric Jonathan]

My belief is that very often there will be large fluctuations with the box method of hibernation and that is one reason why I don't use it. Other keepers find it works for them. It would be impossible where I live to keep the inside of a box between 5 and 7 Centigrade and I doubt that it would be possible to keep it between 0 and 10 over a typical winter here unless the box was placed somewhere very very well insulated from the weather and then its not really just a box is it?

I do wonder what Levi did to get banned from the TT. I personally think what EJ commented is relevant because he was very controversial and at times worse things than that on the TT for a long time before he got banned. It was like he was trying to get banned!

[Levi]

Originally Posted by ibizathetort

Levi - totally understand where you are coming from, did you get an explanation from the TT of these recommended temps before you were banned?

Thanks for asking I was hoping somebody would,

Yes I did get an explanation, in one respect it is very simple the temps are for the SHED not the TORTOISE, unfortunately you can see that a lot of people don't understand this. (I certainly didn't and I don't usually think of my self as stupid)

Okay, I will try and explain how I was told this method should work. (but in greater detail)

The critical Max & Min temperatures stated in this Guide of 10°C & 0°C are for the shed, garage, or wherever the BOX is and NOT for the tortoise. (or inside the box as some presume)
This guide has been around for well over twenty years and back then keepers couldn't buy cheap remote thermometers, so they would not know the temperature inside the box. Now things have changed and most other tortoise groups recommend probes be placed in with the tortoise.

It does not state clearly anywhere in the TT Guide that the temperatures of 0°C & 10°C are for the shed and not inside the box. Above the critical temperatures it refers to the the tortoise's hibernation box, but elsewhere it refers to the hibernating tortoise. If anything is left ambiguous people's perceptions will take over and in the 21 Century with cheap remote thermometer probes they might presume the temperatures are for the tortoise.
Again as far as I'm aware they are the only group to have a box hibernation guide where you don't know the temperature inside the box.

For members that are unfamiliar with this method I will try to explain how it should work, it is not simple and I'm certainly not an expert on it.

By using the recommended insulated double box a Max/Min thermometer placed near the box (not in the box) and an unspecified time limit the keeper has to keep their tortoise at the "ideal" 5°C, without knowing its actual temperature. As most sheds or garages etc don't remain at this perfect temperature for hibernation the keeper has to decide how long they can leave the box at too high or too low a temperature, this can depend on many factors. For instance how long can you leave the BOX in a shed at 8-9°C or at 1-2°C, when the "ideal" tortoise temperature inside the box should be 5°C. In reality if you want to maintain Circa 5°C it wouldn't be that long, but as there is no thermometer inside the box the keeper has to decide (guess) if too much time at too low or high a temperature has elapsed, if it has they need to move the box to another location with a more suitable temperature. The more extreme the temperature change, then the quicker the box will need to be moved.
As stated in the guide the insulation only slows down the tortoises heat loss (cold weather) or heat gain (hot weather). If it drops below freezing outside a well insulated box hopefully the tortoise will be protected for a period of time in the box.

Unfortunately some people misinterpret parts of it or wrongly presume the temperatures quoted are for the tortoise. They also get very confused by the "Critical" Temperatures that are mentioned well before the "ideal" temperature of 5°C and the use of the words "prolonged" & "sustained".

I was told back in April when this guide was explained to me.

"Again, we recommend 5 C as a safe temperature (not 2 or even 3 C). That is to take account of misreadings."

"It is also clearly stated that the ideal target temperature for maintenance in such a situation is circa 5C. Not 2. Not 3. Not 4, and not 6 or 7."

They have never recommended hibernating between 0 & 10°C, why would they, that would not be safe. They clearly say 0°C can kill or blind, most thermometers are only accurate to within + or - one degree, (some are even less accurate) they are fully aware of this.
They are trying to save tortoises lives not put them in danger, of course they don't recommend 0°C as a Minimum temperature for a tortoise in hibernation.

It is just what people now think when they read this guide, it is a shame they would rather just ban me than sort it out !

[Levi]

Originally Posted by Ozric Jonathan

I do wonder what Levi did to get banned from the TT. I personally think what EJ commented is relevant because he was very controversial and at times worse things than that on the TT for a long time before he got banned. It was like he was trying to get banned!

I was finding faults with their "Safer" guide and trying to explain that some people don't understand it (like myself). I was told my next post had to be my own hibernation guide, so that the TT could pick faults with it.

Funnily enough my next post was not a hibernation guide. (so I was instantly banned)

[Ozric Jonathan]

Levi If you wanted to go back in a wee while it would probably be OK but after your experience mayeb you wouldn't want to.

Its hard to get banned from this one. I did get a warning once but I deserved it; I used a bad word. You don't get banned from here for disagreeing, but if any us gets very tiresome we usually find someone will let us know.

[Levi]

I think I'm better off out of it, they have some nice members and I do miss PM'ing a few of them, but I do have this bad habit of disagreeing and not believing everything some people say, which doesn't always go down that well.
This forum has some very nice members too, I know a few of us have been banned (permanently) from the TT, some very recently.

[Pussygalore]

you don't have to be a member to keep in touch there is such a thing as emails or chatrooms, anyone is welcome on here but come on here without a hidden or otherwise agenda, ie to discuss another forum or trying to stir or get backing for that agenda. If hibernation is the subject then start a thread to talk about it but your own thread not one from somewhere else.

[EJ]

...Ouch...

Originally Posted by Pussygalore

you don't have to be a member to keep in touch there is such a thing as emails or chatrooms, anyone is welcome on here but come on here without a hidden or otherwise agenda, ie to discuss another forum or trying to stir or get backing for that agenda. If hibernation is the subject then start a thread to talk about it but your own thread not one from somewhere else.

[Levi]

Originally Posted by Pussygalore

you don't have to be a member to keep in touch there is such a thing as emails or chatrooms, anyone is welcome on here but come on here without a hidden or otherwise agenda, ie to discuss another forum or trying to stir or get backing for that agenda. If hibernation is the subject then start a thread to talk about it but your own thread not one from somewhere else.

I did say I missed PM'ing a few members, e-mail is not quite the same. Yes we have shared e-mails and I received some very nice supportive ones after I was banned and a few since.
I don't see that I had a hidden agenda, (I just asked for opinions ) I thought I said pretty much everything in my first post on this thread and answered your questions fully on my second. I just waited a while before I plucked up the courage to post it, (sorry ) like I waited a while before questioning that hibernation guide for the SECOND time.

"If hibernation is the subject then start a thread to talk about it but your own thread not one from somewhere else. "

This is my thread I was the only person to question the TT guide and I've never started a similar thread to this on any other forum thanks. Would you recommend giving up then, I was actually hoping something might be done about these guides. (As I said there are others) It can be hard for one person to change things, maybe a group of people might have more luck.

As I think you and I almost agree with each other about safe temperatures for hibernation could you post your opinions again. Then I can e-mail these Vets a link to this thread and explain where they went wrong. If anyone thinks torts should be hibernated between 0-10°C (lower and higher for a short period ) then please say and give your reasons why.

Personally I think the TORTOISES should be hibernated between 4 & 6°C (hopefully in a fridge)

Edit : 3 to 7°C "ideal" 5°C if BOX Hibernating.
What do you think Pussygalore ?

[Pussygalore]

while I agree with your temps I would not want to be party to queerying the TT's one, if you wish to write your own hibernation sheet/post then I'm sure you'll get more replys. Hibernation usually developes into long threads on here and many are interested and will have an input but without the mention of the TT or any other forum. I suggest if you wish to write to vets etc that you do your own sheet without a mention of the TT I'm sorry but I really think you'd possibly be opening yourself to a liable suit and its not worth it when it all boils down to possible misunderstanding of wording. This thread isn't your own thoughts or questions on temps and hibernation while you continually mention the TT, start another thread without them and you'll get a much better response. As it stands any vet or rspca etc refering to the TT could do a lot worse and there aren't many as well known or supported in much of their work.

[16 shells]

Most keeper's on here who hibernate there Tortoises would admit there is a risk to do so. To take the risk has had some explanation's why they do hibernate, to me 0-10c guide could get them through a box hibernation, less risky could be the 5c give or take 1c average fridge method.
I use box method garaged, in 2.5 foot of soil inside another box insulated, assuming the weather does not fluctuate beyond 3c-7c in the soil at depth were there dug in, i leave. Last year went low a month into hibernation, they dig lower. 0c and below for about 4 week's i tansfered to a fridge then finished there hibernation in a top soil box when around 5c returned. A bit of moving about but this is how i prefare to offer hibernation and have a standby, watching weather forcast's.