Feeding Regime

[EJ]

Rather than hijack the other thread I thought I'd address this here considering this is yet another misunderstood topic... feeding and growth rate.

I don't have a problem with growth rate because I feed a nutritional diet and I live in a climate that is advantageous to good growth. I let the animals do their own thing which is what they do in the wild. I don't try and control their development one way or the other. I don't have a problem with pyramiding or any other developmental problems. I have blood workups done on many of my tortoises on a fairly regular schedule... for about 15 years now... no problems. Key point... I don't try to control anything except for the feeding schedule.

Again... I don't push anything and I have no intention to try and breed these animals... what they do they do on their own schedule. I just sit back, watch and learn.

I think that 35 years of keeping up to 150 tortoises gives me just a little bit of experience.

Feeding is not regulated in the wild if you want to use that example. As stated before some species occur through a wide range of geographic lattitudes. The different populations are going to have different rates. So... even in nature some of the same species have a longer growth cycle than others.

I still don't understand how a keeper can think they know what's best for the tortoise in terms of feeding and growth cycle.

How often do you read...'I don't understand it, my tortoise is not growing...'. Food is not restricted in the wild and the only reason that some tortoise 'rest' is because they don't have the choice. Because of low temperatures they cannot move to eat or metabolize that food if they could.

You really can't compare mammals with reptiles in this case.

I wonder how restricting nutrition and the proper environment to metabolize that nutrition could be beneficial. Again, as mentioned by another person... the tortoise has to be in top health going in and always comes out in lesser health.

Originally Posted by Pussygalore

Can I just say that at Ej has no problem with growing on his torts faster than some of us would choose to, he also has no problem with pushing the growth to breed younger, if I'm wrong then my appologies but this has come up a year or so back. Some of the more experienced keepers who do hibernate do so for growth reasons as well as following nature in that everything we feed in captivity is far richer than what would be found in the wild, having a 'break' (hibernation) from eating many feel is good and helps with the slow growth that most aim for. Who's to say that these animals aren't programmed to eat everything in sight through the summer when food is available knowing that for several months they won't be eating. Unless you are very strict with the amount etc that is fed and many owners aren't then feeding all the year round and continuous weight gain could for all we know do some sort of long term damage. I know this isn't a very good comparrision but when Alpaca's were first introduced over here it wasn't know that our rich pastures and feeding extra food could and does cause problems, they are designed to make do on very little much like the tortoise who only has abundant food for short periods say after rain and nothing much for most of the rest of time, both can digest and get goodness from what we would think of as dead 'rubbish' we don't feed that, anything we pick and feed is far better than anything they'd find so couldn't a hibernation break be of benefit for their sytems?

[K&N]

I'm very intrigued about this topic.
But... maybe it's the language, but I'd like a to make sure if I got it right.

Do you mean, that you DON'T restrict food, but you DO try to imitate the climate conditions that are in the nature?

That's what I've been trying to do. I'm trying to imitate the conditions I think that this species would face in the nature. I don't have the possibility to keep them outside - but I'm doing what I can here inside.
That does include diet planning, obviously!
(I have to buy their food from the store most of the time) So I plan WHAT I feed them - according to the time of year, but I don't restrict the amount they can eat.

[EJ]

There is no way to duplicate the climatic conditions found in the wild without expensive equipment and software.

The best you can do is to provide a temperature gradient that the tortoise can self regulate depending on if it is feeding, digesting or resting.

Originally Posted by K&N

I'm very intrigued about this topic.
But... maybe it's the language, but I'd like a to make sure if I got it right.

Do you mean, that you DON'T restrict food, but you DO try to imitate the climate conditions that are in the nature?

That's what I've been trying to do. I'm trying to imitate the conditions I think that this species would face in the nature. I don't have the possibility to keep them outside - but I'm doing what I can here inside.
That does include diet planning, obviously!
(I have to buy their food from the store most of the time) So I plan WHAT I feed them - according to the time of year, but I don't restrict the amount they can eat.

[K&N]

Originally Posted by EJ

There is no way to duplicate the climatic conditions found in the wild without expensive equipment and software.

The best you can do is to provide a temperature gradient that the tortoise can self regulate depending on if it is feeding, digesting or resting.

Well, yes, that's what I meant.
I'm trying to get the difference between summer and winter. Regulating the temperature, humidity and the diet, and just - like you said it - let them do what they do!

And I really think this is the best way to enjoy this hobby. Not try to make tortoises do something else or be something else that they naturally are. I know people who treat their tortoises more like a dog or a cat, than a reptile, and I don't think that's good for either one.

[EJ]

...but when you drop the temperature for the winter that is not something they would find normal. It does normally occur in nature but they don't have a choice but to respond to the change. If there was no change they would go along their merry way.

If the keeper tries to create a winter they are forcing a situation that the tortoise has to respond to or it would die. if a temperature gradient is presented all year around that is one less thing the tortoise has to worry about.

Originally Posted by K&N

Well, yes, that's what I meant.
I'm trying to get the difference between summer and winter. Regulating the temperature, humidity and the diet, and just - like you said it - let them do what they do!

And I really think this is the best way to enjoy this hobby. Not try to make tortoises do something else or be something else that they naturally are. I know people who treat their tortoises more like a dog or a cat, than a reptile, and I don't think that's good for either one.

[K&N]

The "winter" that my tortoises have to deal with is darker than the summer, but the temperature never drops below 17 decrees Celsius. This summer was hot, so it was about 25-35 decrees for a month or two, day and night.
What I change is the diet - at spring I fed them very nutritious, fresh food - everything from the garden. When the summer came, the diet changed mostly to grass.

I think I now get what EJ means...
I too have been pondering whether the hibernating is good for the tortoise - obviously they do hibernate, if the conditions are cold. They are after all cold-blooded - but is it necessarily good for them?

Still I think, EJ's way leaves a great value to the diet planning. Especially here where tortoises can't be out side around the year, where they could choose their diet on their own.

[yuna1971]

I agree with Ed and Kelly on this. I have never hibernated Lily. He is 3 years old and full of activity. You know his films and what he is like by viewing them! He was active through out winter and was running around in January this year when we all had snow!
I wont say overwintering is easy - but for me the key factor was that as long as I could provide Lily with an adequate diet, sufficient warmth and heat, made sure he was hydrated - I never looked back. I had help from family with weeds and they would all go out during the weekdays. I would venture out on weekends. Walks would take almost 2 andhalf hours as opposed to say 45mins at the moment. But still managed to get different types. He slowed down abit in February but by this - I mean by perhaps napping more than usual. He still basked in the mornings (cold mornings) and continued to eat a good diet. Throughout, I did not feed him any more than normal summer days right now. Come March April time - he had recharged his batteries and was up and active again. I made sure the room was nearly sealed up, by that - made sure no draughts got in, so the warmth was totally contained.
As to food - I tend to give Lily his main meal on a morning before I leave for work. I dot piles about his room, so that he has to venture out to find it. He also has his little dish and beelines there first on his slate.
Then when Mum visits to check on him....he comes out of his hide when he hears her in the room and she may give him a small Rommaine leaf to chomp on.
When I come home he again comes out from his nap in the hide. I bathe him and he then basks and then after a run around - he will have another peice of Rommaine, leftover weeds and then sleep.
This works for me and works for Lily. And thats the main factor - it is what ever works for you as their owner. As I stated in the other post - no 2 owners are identical, we all have different set ups, different breeds, more than one, or just one on its own. And we all will do slight things differently.
The main thing is the basics - that is good diet, UV, warmth and hydration. We can all provide that. Whether you hibernate, or you dont - is a decision by you and how your tortoise behaves. xxx But no one way IS the right way. xxx

[ziggy's owner]

I agree, Mine have food 24/7 and heat, uv and enjoy, I just went upstairs and my spur ziggy was out and about, they are sometimes awake before me and before the lights go on, I try and give them a varied diet, bath every few days and a bowl of water, and they all grow at diff rates yet I still worry lol

well done ed on the thread

[Alan1]

Would a non-hibernating tort be able to hibernate if it was forced upon it or would it die?

[EJ]

Depends on the species.

I 'hibernate' Aldabras, Sulcatas, Redfoots(dwarf) and then some... going on 5 years now.

THIS IS NOT A RECOMMENDED PRACTICE BY ANYONE INCLUDING MYSELF.

Originally Posted by caledonia

Would a non-hibernating tort be able to hibernate if it was forced upon it or would it die?