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Old 02-05-2009, 03:44 AM   #21
Paulg1
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mmmmm lobster.
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Old 02-05-2009, 08:41 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulg1 View Post
mmmmm lobster.
You wouldn't.




I must admit I don't understand why we permit Halal meat (slawter) in this country. (It does sound cruel)

Last edited by anna m; 02-05-2009 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:14 PM   #23
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he would

we permit Halal meat in this country as it is a muslim tradition. I for one am not one to stop people forfilling beliefs.

The thing is, you are never ever going to have a society where everyone is happy. There are many non meat eaters who believe ANY animal slaughter is cruel. Different societies all over the world see animal slaughter in different animals as acceptable and others as not, ie us with lobster, chinese and turtles, etc etc Regardless of to whether tesco do decide to stop selling tortoises and turtles, you are NEVER going to change the whole of the rest of China.

At the end of is all, Tesco are a "profit" organisation... by not selling this product in China they are regecting a large market. Business suicide. That is NOT to say I do not think they should encourage fair treatment of ALL animal produce sold.
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Old 02-05-2009, 02:26 PM   #24
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Lou is right, I would and have boiled lobster. I make sure the water is at its highest point and it's very fast. I hate that point of the process and don't take enjoyment of it at all. I agree with what Louise said, in the end Tesco is a profit making business and we will never stop some of these things happening. I believe that there is a way things can be done ethically with these animals that brings the least amount of discomfort to them. We won't change the world but the best we can do is bring awareness for the ethical treatment of the animals to the best of our ability.
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Old 02-05-2009, 03:37 PM   #25
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This issue has been the subject of much debate. However, we must realise that it is not just an animal welfare issue, although that is very important. It is quite literally driving much of the Chelonian group toward imminent extinction. To understand this, as a forum of "Shelled Warriors", is vital, attached is an extract from a paper written by Dr Barbara Maas, CEO of "Care for the Wild International", and delivered to the board of Tesco last November.

Turtle Farming in China
An Update for Tesco
3 October 2008

Since our last meeting in June 2008, Care for the Wild indentified a number of additional points which are relevant to our dialogue on farming and selling live turtles and frogs for food in China. This information was derived from face to face discussions and correspondence with Prof Shi Haitao, China’s leading chelonian expert, who supports CWI’s awareness campaign to persuade Tesco to abandon the sale of turtles and other live animals for food. Prof. Shi’s expertise is based on over 20 years of research in the field (including turtle farms) and the laboratory. Together with other experts, Prof Shi agrees with Care for the Wild that the only long-term solution to the crisis facing chelonians lies in persuading consumers to turn away from eating turtles. Apart from summarising Prof. Shi’s comments, this document also draws on information received from chelonian experts Hans-Dieter Philippen, Paul Eversfield and others and from the primary scientific literature.


Background Information
Freshwater turtles have been used as source of food and Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) for thousands of years. Like shark fins and bird's nest soup, eating turtles is considered to be "good for your health". China’s explosive economic development over the last decade resulted in a vastly increased demand, which led to worldwide concerns about sustainability and unregulated harvesting of from the wild.

Recent economic changes in Asia facilitated not only growing domestic, but international trade in turtles and tortoises. Millions are consumed as food and medicine. As a result of this huge and unsustainable trade, populations have been dramatically reduced in the wild. According to former chair of the IUCN/SSC Tortoise and Freshwater Turtle Specialist Group John Behler, Southeast Asia “is being vacuumed of its turtles“.

Many of the turtle and tortoise species in trade are now listed on CITES (UN Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species) Appendix I (no trade), or on Appendix II, and so are protected from international trade in their countries of origin at least in theory. Concerns about the status of wild turtle populations are exemplified by the growing number of freshwater turtle species that have been proposed for listing on the CITES Appendices to control international trade.

The trade in turtles for consumption generally originates in source countries in Southeast and South Asia and ends in consumer countries in East Asia, primarily China. A certain proportion of turtles captured, in some locations a substantial proportion, is consumed locally for subsistence and in the restaurant trade, but the greater portion of capture is exported. Traded turtles represent a luxury food, not a source of protein for the poor. The clear rise in the collection of chelonians in countries that are far from the main markets is just one indication of the depletion of local species. Most of this trade is not recorded, even in CITES-listed species. In many cases, shipments of freshwater turtles and tortoises are declared to be seafood. Together with difficulties of identifying species this has led to a lack of species-specific monitoring of trade as well as serious problems related to enforcement of national and CITES laws. Under-reporting is common practice, species are incorrectly identified, some countries do not compile statistics for certain categories, and illegal trade flourishes. Data on wild-caught turtles for food are likely to be underestimates.

As the main consumer nation, China has taken steps in recent years to try and address the extensive trade in freshwater turtles, but enforcement is negligible. One expert referred to his country’s conservation laws as a ‘paper tiger’. The inability of customs officers, wildlife enforcement agency staff and others in source and consumer nations to identify turtle species reliably is a serious obstacle to trade monitoring and effective enforcement. Without the ability to identify animals in trade, it is impossible to determine which species or individuals (i.e., farmed versus wild caught) are entering trade chains illegally. This problem is exploited by traders, who intentionally misidentify and make false declarations of the contents of consignments and farming practices.

The Asian trade in freshwater turtles is non-species specific, with the majority of species in the region being involved in trade - most are harvested from the wild. Every turtle that is encountered is likely to enter trade. In some areas, turtle hunting dogs are used to sniff out every last individual. With rising human populations and affluence in many Asian countries, the demand for turtles and tortoises for food and TCM is increasing. For example, the import of chelonians to Hong Kong for use as food rose from 110 tons in 1991 to 3500 tons in 1996 and even 13,500 tons in 1998; more than a hundredfold increase. This is of great concerns because long-term studies have shown that removing even modest numbers of adults and older juvenile turtles has very damaging effects on populations. Collection for food is directed at larger adult individuals and so further impacts wild populations. The acute conservation crisis that faces the world’s turtles today is an inevitable consequence of these developments.

China’s human population stands at more than 1.3 billion. Although some trade is in captive-bred species, most is not. Coupled with burgeoning economic growth, this means that demand and therefore trade pressure on all chelonians will increase even further unless it is challenged.
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Old 02-05-2009, 04:55 PM   #26
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surely Tesco do not source their tort's from the wild? I agree the wild caught torts all over the world is something which needs to be addressed. Surely they have a farming process for the animals they sell just as we do with any other meat? I don't know, hence me asking... just incase I come across as being smart !!

If thats the case, then yes, obviously they can't just go catching anything - sounds like a similar case as things like fish, as most of us will know, cod is in high demand and on the brink of being dangerously in short supply... interesting...

I think what is being missed here is this point, the danger on wild caught. I feel like too many people are attaching a lot of emotion to it , simply for the reason that the tortoise's are being eaten, which really, lets be honest. They are all gods creatures!!!
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Old 02-05-2009, 06:49 PM   #27
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A further extract from Dr Mass's Paper which covers the questions you pose:
The History of Turtle Farming

While consumption of turtles for food is an ancient Chinese tradition, turtle farming is a relatively recent phenomenon. Commercial culture of freshwater turtles was pioneered in Japan by Mr. Hattori near Tokyo, who started with locally native Pelodiscus sinensis soft-shells in 1866. The demand and relatively high prices offered for freshwater turtles in the 1980s and 1990s spurred the development of turtle farming in countries such as Thailand, Malaysia, Taiwan and China. In recent years large numbers of hatchlings were exported from Taiwan to various countries, where they were used for farming (e.g. Thailand, Malaysia). Two species that are farmed extensively in Southeast Asia, Pelodiscus sinensis and Trachemys scripta, are not endemic there, but were originally imported from Taiwan and the USA respectively.

China has emerged as a significant source of farmed turtles. The full extent of turtle farming in China was not known until the Chinese government undertook a recent review of farming operations. The results indicate that farms were operating in 14 Provinces, and that significant numbers of turtles were being held. Of the 309 million turtles reported at the time of the review, the most common species were Pelodiscus sinensis (303 million), Chinemys reevesii (2.8 million), Ocadia sinensis (1.5 million), and Chrysemys scripta (0.9 million). In order of numbers held, the following species were also recorded; Palea steindachneri, Maremys mutica, Pyxidea mouhotii, Cuora trifasciata, Chelydra serpentina, Geoemyda spengleri, Platysternon megalocephalum, Indotestudo elongata, Macroclemys temmincki, Sacalia quadriocellata and Cuora flavimarginata. Output from Chinese turtle farms in 2002 was estimated to reach 68,000 tons.

Pelodiscus sinensis is the most common species farmed in China and other parts of Asia, and millions of individuals can be seen in markets in southern China on any given day. In the 1990’s, farming of Chinese soft-shell turtles expanded exponentially in both Malaysia and Thailand and two types of Chinese soft-shell turtle farms developed. The second type of farm operators raises purchased hatchlings to a marketable weight for sale. Around the same time, domestic supply of farmed soft-shell turtles reached peak levels and prices began to drop. By 2000, prices for soft-shell turtles and other high-value freshwater aquaculture products had decreased by as much as fifty percent. Some farmers ran into financial difficulties because and began to rear hard-shelled species such as Cuora trifasciata and Mauremys mutica. Farming of hard-shelled turtles is not considered as “efficient” as it is for soft-shelled species, as the former have slower growth rates and reproduce more slowly. However, species such as Cuora trifaciata are farmed because of their high market value as a result of their perceived cancer curing properties.

In 1999, China imposed restrictions on imports of farmed soft-shell turtles because of Salmonella contamination. This was followed by further restrictions on farmed soft-shell turtles as well as wild-collected turtles as part of China’s attempts to be seen to tighten wildlife conservation and trade regulations in general. With the main export market at least officially closed, soft-shell turtle farmers outside mainland China looked for alternative markets to sell their production. Official export volumes from Thailand and Malaysia plummeted and wholesale prices slumped correspondingly, leading many farmers to close down or switch activities. Of over 10,000 farms in Thailand in 1998, 6000 remained in 2001. These were reduced to a handful of moribund operations in September 2002, most operators having switched to culturing freshwater prawns or fish. Of 30 farms operating in Langkap, Malaysia, in 1997, only 4 were left in May 2000.



Why Turtle Farming is not the Answer

Wildlife farming, including of turtles, poses major conservation threats to existing populations in the area of the farm due to the need to acquire breeding stock from wild populations, an increased risks of disease and genetic contamination of wild populations of the same or other species, risks of spreading invasive alien species (see below) and/or their diseases, and because wildlife farms frequently act as a front for illegal trade of wild-caught animals. Moreover, until population numbers in the wild decrease to a point where hunting is no longer worthwhile, wildlife farming is unlikely to reduce illegal hunting, due to the high costs of farming compared to hunting, lack of appropriate technical skills and funds, as well as cultural constraints. Thus, wildlife farming is not the panacea to solve the problems of food security and unsustainable hunting in the humid tropics as is sometimes proposed.

Prof. Shi’s research revealed that turtle farms are the main illegal turtle traders in China, as they are the sole agents allowed to buy and sell turtles in China. They are motivated solely by profit and will do anything to minimize costs and increase profits. This gives rise to a host of complications which add to what is already a difficult issue.
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Old 02-05-2009, 07:13 PM   #28
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The size of this paper precluded posting as one item, however, to understand this complex problem and the affect it is having on Wild populations, it needs to be read in context:

Turtle Farming and Wild Caught Animals
As mentioned in the past, farmers depend on wild caught animals to supplement breeding stock. The breeding potential of turtles on farms decreases significantly over time and will be exhausted after two to three seasons, depending on food (e.g., lack of calcium for females) and other environmental factors. After this period, turtles enter a ‘resting period’, during which they will not reproduce. Introducing wild turtles with a fresh, strong, healthy constitution and a far superior capacity to breed maintains the economic viability of turtle farms.

Expertise in identifying turtle species is almost completely lacking in China. The situation is made worse by the presence of accidentally or deliberately farm-bred hybrids (see below), which are often passed of by farmers as separate species to achieve higher rarity value, as well as by the general inability to differentiate between farmed and wild caught individuals. The reality of this situation is illustrated for example by the ‘research’ commissioned by Tesco in China in 2006 and the continued unresolved question of which species are sold in Chinese Tesco stores.

Some 80 turtle species are sold as commercially farmed in China. However, less than one third have been farmed successfully. Chinese regulations stipulate that only second generation offspring is considered captive bred or farmed. Ensuring compliance of this regulation, however, is a very different matter. Prof. Shi’s research has found no evidence of multigenerational breeding. Experts agree that if this rule was to be adhered to, trade in farmed turtles would have to be closed for at least 10 years.

Supplementing Farm Breeding Stock
Adult brood-stock may be acquired from the wild, either from native local populations or through regional and international trade in wild-harvested turtles. Stock management at most Asian turtle farms is haphazard. As a rule, additional breeder animals from varying sources are added whenever convenient. Records or reliable documentation of stock acquisition and stock movements are non-existent. As a result, verification of farms as captive breeding operations in the sense of CITES Resolution Conf. 10.16 (Rev), whereby closed-cycle reproduction to the second captive-bred generation is required, is unrealistic.

From a farmer’s perspective, wild caught turtles are more cost effective and, if sold on, allow for immediate profit without the layout of rearing costs. Farmers buy wild turtles cheaply from hunters to sell them on for a profit or integrate them into their farm’s breeding stock. Prof Shi stressed that farmers will also sell on wild caught turtles illegally to trusted customers. These include restaurants, which are able to pay higher prices, which are then recouped from clients.

Turtle farms require large amounts of space and take a heavy toll on the environment. One of these is caused by the absence of water filtration systems. Used (and often contaminated) water from farms is simply discharged, which is extremely wasteful utilization of what is increasingly becoming a limited resource in China and elsewhere. Waste water from turtle farms also contains chemical contaminants, including antibiotics and growth hormones.

There is no evidence that farms are sustainable in terms of either breeding or sales. To make turtle trade sustainable and to prevent farms from acting as a front for illegal trade of wild-caught turtles would require strict regulations as well as the capacity to enforce them. However, experts, including Prof. Shi, consider the latter utterly unfeasible.


Turtle Farming and Invasive Aliens
where they have the ability to establish themselves, invade, outcompete natives and take over the new environments. They are widespread in the world and are found in all categories of living organisms and all types of ecosystems…. The threat to biodiversity due to invasive alien species is considered second only to that of habitat loss. They are thus a serious impediment to conservation and sustainable use of global, regional and local biodiversity…. Invasive alien species can cause significant irreversible environmental and socio-economic impact at the genetic, species and ecosystem levels. Their management costs include not only costs of prevention, control and mitigation, but also indirect costs due to impacts on ecological services” (Convention on Biological Diversity: http://www.biodiv.org/programmes/cro...en/default.asp).

Wildlife farming on a significant scale almost inevitably results in animals eventually escaping. If a species is not native to an area, escapees pose potential threats to local species and the wider environment. The Convention on Biological Diversity recognizes “game ranching” as a possible means of introducing invasive alien species, and calls for environmental impact assessments and adoption of a precautionary approach when planning such developments.

Species most suitable for productive farming are those with faster growth and high reproductive potential. These are the same characteristics that enable populations of these species to grow explosively in the wild, at which point they are defined as “invasives”. Invasive species can cause ecological disruption and threaten native species if they can successfully establish themselves in the new area. Typhoons, which have damaged farms, and will have facilitated the escape of turtles, have hit the southern part of China twice in recent times. Chinese soft-shelled turtles (Pelodiscus sinensis), which have escaped from farms in Malaysia are reportedly out-competing the slower-breeding and less aggressive native turtles. Coypus (Myocastor coypus) which escaped from fur farms in Britain were responsible for wide scale local extinctions of the native European otter (Lutra lutra). Invasive species may also introduce exotic diseases and parasites that threaten native fauna and domestic livestock. For example, avian malaria was brought into Hawaii via exotic pet birds, and devastated native bird populations.

Turtle farming in China involves indiscriminate crossbreeding of different species from Asia and other parts of the world. These practices have resulted in a host of hybrids and ‘super-hybrids’, which incorporate the genetic material of three different species. One example of deliberately bred hybrids from Chinese turtle farms is a new species of Chinese red-eared slider. Hybrid turtles are bred in farms, passed off as highly prized rare species they resemble to be sold for medicine, food, and private collections. Hybrid turtles have even been described as new species, obfuscating turtle taxonomy and conservation efforts.


The Use of Growth Hormones & Fluid Injection
As far as farming Chinese soft-shell turtles (Pelodiscus sinensis) is concerned, growth hormones are widely used to speed up size and weight increase. Turtles are sold by weight and/or size. The introduction of growth hormone as a food additive enables farmers to sell their animals faster and achieve higher prices, while minimizing costs (feeding, husbandry etc.). According to Prof Shi, this has led to cases of permanent infertility in women as a result of turtle consumption.

A different practice employed to artificially increase the weight and thus the price of turtles prior to sale involves injecting water into the turtles’ tissue or body cavity prior to sale. Needless to say this is unacceptable from a veterinary and animal welfare point of view.
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Old 02-05-2009, 07:18 PM   #29
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Last section of this important paper written by Dr Barbara Maas:

Public and Environmental Health Implications
Farmed turtles are likely to carry Salmonella. Infected individuals can only be identified by using laboratory tests. Salmonella infections from reptiles have been associated with severe health problems and death and pose a serious contamination risk and human health hazard in a food retail environment. Experts agree that due to the quantities of animals involved in commercial turtle farming for food, the idea of producing salmonella-free hatchlings or adults is unrealistic.

The same is true for diseases introduced through the importation of frogs, lizards, snakes and salamanders. In the case of frogs, for example, farmers and retailers routinely use bleach on the animals in an attempt to combat germs, which is highly inappropriate in terms of animal welfare and public health. It is also ineffective.

Turtle farming has transferred recognised harmful intensive farming practices to mass breeding of wild animals. Soft-shell turtles are not group living animals. Both sexes are territorial and highly aggressive. Even hatchlings at farms often kill each other after two days. High density rearing fails to take account of natural group size and/or group composition (e.g., 1 male with 100 females). Forced proximity, overcrowding, food and mate competition etc. are recognised biological stressors that affect the animals’ health, welfare, and reproductive potential and result in cannibalism, injuries and disease. These circumstances also provide ideal conditions for disease outbreaks, higher contact rates, aggression, compromised immune response, and unnatural pathogen and parasite loads. The explosive outbreaks of SARS and mad cow disease are just two examples of the potential consequences of this approach.

Individual Pelodiscus sinensis reach saleable weight about two years after hatching and become sexually mature aged between 4-5 years old in the wild. Farmers seek to accelerate growth by using growth hormones and by rearing turtles under permanent light and in heated water, which makes turtles more aggressive, raises contact rate and so further exacerbates disease related problems. Farms then attempt to minimize the effects of what are essentially biological symptoms of unsuitable conditions, by using harmful chemical water and food additives, including and antibiotics. The need to restock with fresh animals for breeding purposes is another side effect (see above). To avoid triggering aggression and stress in turtles requires not only visual but olfactory separation, which cannot be achieved under commercial farming conditions.


Keeping Turtles on Ice
Pelodiscus sinensis is a tropical species which requires normal ambient temperatures between 22-24°C and basking temperatures upwards of 30°C. Placing these animals on ice (2-4°C) is therefore unacceptable from a veterinary and animal welfare point of view and will be associated with pain, distress and clinical stress as a result of hypothermia.


A Final Word from Professor Shi
Asia has a high diversity of turtle species, but this unique fauna is facing a perilous and uncertain future. The Chinese turtle trade is the primary threat to endangered turtle populations throughout Asia, primarily because of the long tradition of consuming turtles in China. This demand is fuelled by deeply held cultural beliefs and threatens all of Asia’s turtles. In China, turtles are a sought after delicacy because of the widespread popular belief, inspired by Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), that turtle meat and shell possess special nutritional or curative properties.

The large-scale consumption of turtle products results, in part, from false claims about the nutritional value of turtles. Combating a faith-based misconception with science is an uphill endeavour. Practitioners of TCM do not attempt to test the veracity of their claims. As a result, almost all of their recommendations lack an empirical and rational foundation. Nevertheless, turtle jelly, made from the ground-up shells of endangered species, has become popular in Hong Kong and several chain stores specializing in this expensive “health food” have opened in the past decade. Our study shows that, where nutritional composition and content are concerned, the human consumption of turtles could and should be completely substituted by other, often cheaper domestic sources and mineral supplements. All of these are widely available in China nowadays, particularly to those able to afford consuming turtles.

This demand has fuelled a highly profitable captive breeding industry that contributes to the ongoing extirpation of China’s wild turtle populations and is used to sanitise this damaging trade.

Almost every species is traded; only a very few Asian turtle species have not been reported in trade. These species are exceptionally rare and in some cases probably extinct. There are approximately 30 indigenous turtle species in China of which three are already presumed extinct. Once extremely common and widespread species, such as Mauremys reevesii and Pelodiscus sinensis are now also very difficult to find in the field, while Cuora trifasciata is critically endangered. However, they still face intense and targeted harvesting pressure.

All of China’s turtle and tortoise species are endangered as a result of human consumption. Turtle consumption in China is unsustainable with or without farming – and has led to the depletion of wild turtle populations across Asia and beyond.

Our research shows that the same (or better) nutritional benefits can be obtained with cheaper, more commonly available, and less-endangered food sources. Given the financial and environmental costs of eating turtles, other options for obtaining the same nutrition should be promoted instead.
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Old 04-05-2009, 08:46 PM   #30
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EJ you totally miss the point - as said they are being driven to extinction, plus I for one don't eat lobster (how many people keep lobsters as pets by the way) but from what I've read many are stunned or killed before cooking now anyway in our restaurants at least. You can't keep comparing it to our consumption of chicken etc, when was the last time you saw a chicken disembowled on the counter at Morrisons? Do you have yours wrapped up alive so you can have a half arsed bash at killing it at home...I don't buy any meat unless its free range, I need to know the animals had a half decent life before its end.

The main argument I have with Tesco is that whilst I fully understand the differences in cultures it is wrong for a UK company like Tesco to get involved, especially as they now represent the UK on a global scale. I wonder how many of their shareholders know about the this trade.

Its easy to stick your head in the sand and say oh well its just like how we eat poultry
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