Manufactured Diet... very long post.

[EJ]

WARNING... Intended for mature audiences.

Another WARNING...Long... Get a Pint, Glass of wine or a Pop.

This is another one of those posts I've been meaning to post and just never got around to it. These are observations and results of one tortoise keeper although there is similar results continuing to mount.

I cautiously started using this diet called Mazuri tortoise diet about 6 or maybe 7 years ago. It seemed like a solution to my problems. Before using this I was going through about $50 of produce a week and roughly two hours to chop and prepare it. It was very time consuming and I don't think I was hitting all the marks as far as nutrition goes even though I carefully selected the darkest greens and had a variety of about 20 different items. I also used a supplement (Centrum) and Calcium carbonate(cuttlebone)

This was the result of the weekly routine...



Like many people on this list I heard horror stories about pelleted diets so I researched this particular diet. I got to be pretty well acquainted with the person who developed and researched the diet. I also looked beyond this because I figured he had a stake in the marketing of this product. I talked to zoo keepers and anyone who had used the diet. Before that time it was only available to zoos. It was developed about 15 years prior to me using it for head starting Galapagos tortoise in those islands.

I figured I'll try it out on a limited basis. As time went on I noticed some interesting results... the first of which was that the animals liked it to an extreme. This was odd considering how some of the tortoises I keep were very finicky eaters. They appear to like it so much so that they can seem to smell it near by and there really is no detectable odor that I can detect.



At first I used it as a supplement with the greens. After a time I increased the Mazuri and decreased the greens. The tortoises outside always had access to grass and whatever forage so they were the first that were fed this diet exclusively. Greens were thrown in occasionally but it wasn't prepared as it was and it was fed more as a treat than anything else. The tortoise diet was the primary source of nutrition. The tortoises I was worried about the most got greens as the primary diet and Mazuri as a supplement. Those tortoise were mostly kept in indoor enclosures.

The Aldabras, Leopards and Sulcatas were the first to be fed the Mazuri diet on kind of exclusive basis because they had the run of the yard and they were feeding mostly on the stuff they found in the yard... grass, weeds, hedges and leaves in addition to whatever they could catch(bugs, dead birds, dog crap...)

They started showing some wonderful growth with the Aldabras being the most impressive. This is my first Aldabra and my baby. It was 4 inches SCL when I got it. That was about 2000. This is him today weighing in at about 100lbs (He was 1/2 pound to start).


As time went on I brought in new animals. The Redfoots were the first that got the diet and did not have the run of the yard so they did not have access to natural forage. Their pen was planted but they wiped that out in a week. They were given about 1/3 greens and the rest the Mazuri diet each week. They started showing me the most impressive growth outside of the Aldabras. As with the other tortoises they loved it and still do.

I mean they really love the stuff...

The Redfoots were the first to show me a 'problem' with the diet. It's more of an aesthetic thing than anything else. If the growth is too fast it does not grow symetrical. There is no pyramiding but it is not symmetrical.

The above girl showed me the most rapid growth. Can pretty much see the growth and the seasonal growth rings. The above is at 4 years in my care... maybe a little more.
Here is another Redfoot in that group. All have doubled in size in my care in that 4+ years.


This is another favorite of mine... Speedy. This guy has been on the net over about 7 years. At first he was the slowest growing Sulcata. He was about 5lbs after 5 years. In the last 2 years this is where he's doubled in size. He started 50/50 and went to 100% of the diet.

My leopards have always been close to my heart. They have also been the most problematic tortoise I've ever kept from day one... 1978. I have not kept them all that time because before I left NY I got rid of those... 2 females, no male but I quickly got some in TX which I recently lost. Those are the ones I had 23 years... anyway...
This was the only offspring I personally raised to adult. Someone was nice enough to point out that she is grossly pyramided... I think she is... but not grossly. She's taught me a great deal over the years... roughly 17 years. It was the last tortoise that was produced for me in Texas which is why I think I kept her.

This is a shot of what I call my learning curve. You'll notice that the slope gradually decreases and the most recent part is the flattest. That's always made me wonder especially when I'm always saying that diet has little to do with shell shape but you do have to understand that I changed other things like adding outdoor heat and keeping her outdoors 24/7.

I finally get to the final phase of my use of this diet... using it exclusively on the tortoises I keep indoors. Up until now it was about 2/3 of their diet but time constraints took over and the produce section at Walmart here in Georgia is not much different than the best produce section you can find in the UK... not real good. This forced me into a situation which I probably would have fallen into regardless.

There are 2 sets of tortoises I thought I'd try this on... some leopards... the first hatched here in Georgia and some Stars which I've had terrible luck with... until now. I did also tried this with the only Spider I hatched out. In fact it was the Spider that gave me the idea. I'd been feeding her the diet almost exclusively from day one from the start and this is the current result...


Until now the diet was fed moistened. The diet is a pelleted diet and dry so it was impossible for the smaller tortoises to eat so it was moistened which they would readily eat. The problem here is that it was messy and would go bad if left for to long so it had to be removed once the tortoises were finished. Also, the tortoises would sometimes have to be cleaned because they seem to like walking through it as much as they liked eating it. My solution to this was to run it through a grinder and feed it dry ad lib. I fill the dish daily with as much as I thin their little tummies will hold for one day.


I am amazed at the current results. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop but I'm putting a good deal of trust in that the manufacturers know what they are doing. First is the leopards. I've only been doing this for about 2 months. Also note the tortoises are kept hot. They have basking sites of over 100F which they use. This is the Leopards.

The above girl was growing so slowly. I think she is about 3 years old. The new growth is obvious. She is displaying that abnormality I mentioned earlier but it is starting to show growth.

Here is one of the last Leopards I hatched. One of my Third generation babies...


Finally, the tortoises that have given me the most joy in the last 2 months with what I've been doing. They are also the ones responsible for the most questions... my Stars. I started with 12 confiscated imports and slowly lost them one by one. I lost 2 after the move to Georgia and it really bummed me out. I figured I can't do any worse so what the heck... I am blown away with the results. They were 2 inches when I got them. The largest is now about 3+ inches.

This is the largest.

This is the smallest which did not show any growth in almost 2 years. You can see the new growth after 2 months... unreal. These guys weigh a ton also.


There are 2 important points I'd like to note. The first is that the thing that killed most if not all the Stars is dehydration/urates/stones. I'm convinced it was from a green diet. With this diet the salts are minimal and they hardly pass any urates at all.

The other point is that on this diet they are inclined to drink a great deal. This applies to all the tortoises.

I've been wanting to do this post for a while because it might give a little insight into my point of view on this topic which I feel pretty strongly about.

Nutrition is a very controversial topic regardless of animal or people and I'll bet it will be as much in years to come.

This is intended to be a note and nothing more.

[Toni115]

Hi Ed,
A very interesting and though provoking post, I have read it twice Great pictures too Thankyou for sharing !!

[Pussygalore]

Thanks for posting this Ed to me your torts look lovely but I'm a novice, however and don't jump down my throat as I'm probably mis reading it in someway but you go on about good growth rate and I thought the whole point of growth was to literally not have any, ie very slow and gradual, aren't we trying to imitate what happens to them in the wild which i thought was very slow and was why they lived so long, by the way its nice to see you posting and sharing more with us.

[Pies]

Yes, Pussygalore, I agree with you on the growth rate.

However, Ed's torts look fine. I tried this pellet food a while ago, but my 2 didn't touch the stuff.

Some good observations Ed. One thing that went through my mind was where you say this food was developed for 'head starting' Galapagos torts. In the footage I've seen of Lonesome George, he always seems to be feeding on leaf. But was this given to him at any stage? I ask this because of his attitude to females. Although the females he has been introduced to are not of his exact species, they are very close, yet he shows no interest in them whatever. Have you noticed any lack of interest in mating among any of your torts?

It's just a thought, and I could be way off the track, but poor old George needs all the help he can get, or it's a sad goodbye to the very sub specis that the Spanish Conquisadores called the Galapagos.

Man has alraedy wiped out 3 species of Galapagos torts. Lonesome George will be yet another notch in the butt of mans mass extinction gun.

[EJ]

It just occured to me how I can explain this...

It's like restoring old cars... there are people who try to restore the car with original parts to produce a truely original car. Then there are people who use manufactured parts to produce an original looking car. It's all a matter of personal taste.

In my case I don't think it is important as to how an animal is raised as long as the animal is 'happy' and healthy.

I'll say this time and again that I can find no evidence to support the idea that the growth rate has any effect on the overall health of a reptile.

In the wild the growth rate also varies. It is rapid during times of favorable conditions and slow otherwise. The rate of growth in the wild is dictated by environmental conditions and not by design.

On the Galaps... I've never actually hunted down the reference for the headstarting of the Galapagos tortoises but it was described to me. The hatchlings were raised to a size where their chances of survival were increased and then they were released. That's about as much as I've been told.

I'm not saying that I would replace natural graze if given a choice. Considering I have to provide a diet in captivity I'm looking for the most complete and balanced diet I can provide within reason.

[Pussygalore]

Are the growth/weights that you describe normal to these particular tortoises in the same time taken or are they a lot faster, I don't know much about those breeds, if they are faster what if any would the benefits be and would the weight gain on this diet stop when they become adult or just carry on.

[pawsplus]

I don't want to get into an argument here. I'm just going to reiterate that many of the tortoises you raise, including leopards, are supposed to eat grass/weeds. Period. So when you were previously cutting up tons of kitchen produce, you were feeding them incorrectly. If you don't have grass, the grassland torts are supposed to eat hay (i.e., dried grass). Even in a drought, good hay is cheap compared to produce, and it's what they are supposed to eat.

I guess I just don't understand messing w/ mother nature. If they're supposed to eat grass, feed them grass/hay. Here are a few pages (most from experts) which state clearly that forage is the diet of leopards and that to feed them otherwise is to invite GI tract problems and pyramiding. The first is by Misty Corton, who is pretty much THE internet expert on Leopards (and she lives in Africa and deals w/ them in the wild). It specifically addresses the dangers of produce-based diets (and these manufactured "diets" are even worse).

http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/Mistypardaliscare.htm

http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/pardaliscare.htm

http://www.wnyherp.org/care-sheets/t...d-tortoise.php

Just out of curiosity, what is the ingredient list in this tortoise diet you feed?

[helen1]

Interesting post......I used the dried diet for a small, sickly tort I had..only for a week or so..have more than enough vegetation..but she was eating nothing at all and I could see her slipping away..she is back with her peers now and exclusively on weeds...which she actually does battle for and she has gained some weight. I do not need to use it but situations sometimes dictate.

The aldabra and sulcata are my favourites!

[EJ]

'Normal' is a very relative term.

If you compare the rates in captivity to the rates in the wild they are not normal but then that's like compairing the growth rates in the wild between a warm rainy season and a cool dry season. One season you are going to get accelerated growth and the next you are going to get stunted growth.

The last question is a good one. I don't know because tortoises don't ever stop growing but the rate does slow down with age regardless.

Again, the rate of growth is of no concern to me... here is no reason for it to be. This includes 'too slow' or 'too fast'.

I do have to admit were I've run into situations were I was not comfortable with a growth rate to where it was faster than I liked and that was with Russian tortoises so I restricted their intake of the diet. So, I do kind of restrict the diet for the most part.

Originally Posted by Pussygalore

Are the growth/weights that you describe normal to these particular tortoises in the same time taken or are they a lot faster, I don't know much about those breeds, if they are faster what if any would the benefits be and would the weight gain on this diet stop when they become adult or just carry on.

[terrypin]

thanks for the post on mazuri Ed it certainly seems a usefull suppliment although i try to survive on mostly forage when i can i must confess something like this would be ideal if really did work .do you find your torts as active when they are bowl fed and do they spend a lot of time foraging even though they are full u.

terry