Hatchling growth and predation.

[burnt toast]

I used to keep to the " only gain so many grams per month" rule but when it came to hibernation time my torts were so light they couldnt hibernate. I then forgot that idea & fed them well.

I also think hydration is very important. My smoothest Marginated used to give me a heart attack as a baby she used to enjoy sleeping in her water bowl! She was a real water baby nearly always in it.

[Suze65]

So is it really possible to over feed a med tortoise on weeds and salad leaves, I don't restrict food, but they don't seem to eat none stop, infact their eating habits go in phases, they were really hungry in the hottest weather , now it's cooled down a bit, they are eating less, of their own choice. And as I've I hibernate all of mine ( except for special needs) so they have a break from eating. So I hope as close to natural eating habits as possible. Personally I think don't restrict what you give them but promote natural eating habits.

[pagan queen]

Originally Posted by TillyTortoise

You're right Wendy, although you didn't mention vitamin D3, you can supply shed loads of calcium but without D3 it's useless. So either proper supplementation or UV lighting is needed. One without the other is useless.

I did omit the D3 didn't I. I think my point was that even if a tort has an outside area, the lack of calcium would still cause the animal to grow badly. Maybe not as bad though.

I often wonder if too much calcium can contribute to pyramiding. A wild tort would regulate the amount of calcium intake it has, where as a lot of people add calcium to the food they provide. If the tort doesn't need the calcium it can't not eat it as it's stuck to the food. That calcium has to go somewhere. Is it then deposited in the shell causing deformities like pyramiding or does the tort excrete the excess?

[sandy]

Originally Posted by burnt toast

I used to keep to the " only gain so many grams per month" rule but when it came to hibernation time my torts were so light they couldnt hibernate. I then forgot that idea & fed them well.

I also think hydration is very important. My smoothest Marginated used to give me a heart attack as a baby she used to enjoy sleeping in her water bowl! She was a real water baby nearly always in it.

I still use the grams per month. but when it comes to hibernation, I weigh them before the windown. If they are of a healthy weight, I don't weigh every week. I weigh them before they actually are put in hibernation, of course they will have lost weight, they have not eaten. I also weigh my hathchlings or smaller tortoises that I box hibernate, once a fortnight. If any worries about weight loss I up the weighing times.
My adults are wound down, and go down when they choose, so once they are under the soil, they don't get any checks, other than keeping an eye on temps.
I do watch my tortoises closely during the year, looking for changes etc. If when I pick them up they seem heavy, that's fine. They will hibernate in my greenhouse.

[egyptiandan64]

That would be no Wendy as the bones on a tortoise with MBD become more porus and bigger (thicker) but not heavier. Good bone is tight and compact.
http://www.shelledwarriors.co.uk/for...ad.php?t=18782

Danny

[pagan queen]

Originally Posted by egyptiandan64

That would be no Wendy as the bones on a tortoise with MBD become more porus and bigger (thicker) but not heavier. Good bone is tight and compact.
http://www.shelledwarriors.co.uk/for...ad.php?t=18782

Danny

Very interesting Danny. So how does humidity work to prevent pyramiding? Bone thinning, or osteoporosis, in humans is caused by lack of calcium or loss of calcium through various causes like hormone reduction, as in post menopausal women. If you look at the cross section of a human bone with osteoporosis it is very similar to the images of the pyramided the shell. As the name suggests, porous bones.

[egyptiandan64]

Same with tortoises

Well if a hatchling tortoise is consistantly getting dehydrated at night than liver (and other organs) functions drop off. The liver is where calcium is taken up from the gut and stored to be used for bones and muscles. If the liver function is lowered, than even with giving what would be considered the right amount of calcium, phosphorus and D3 won't help as the liver won't have enough available for the body.
Everything is interconnected and when you throw even one thing off it throws off the entire system.

Danny

[pagan queen]

Originally Posted by egyptiandan64

Same with tortoises

Well if a hatchling tortoise is consistantly getting dehydrated at night than liver (and other organs) functions drop off. The liver is where calcium is taken up from the gut and stored to be used for bones and muscles. If the liver function is lowered, than even with giving what would be considered the right amount of calcium, phosphorus and D3 won't help as the liver won't have enough available for the body.
Everything is interconnected and when you throw even one thing off it throws off the entire system.

Danny

So humidity isn't the key, it's hydration. If a tort is well hydrated it doesn't matter how damp it's surroundings are. If there is a humid atmosphere but it's hot as hell we still get thirsty, no amount of humidity will change that. The only way to stop being thirsty and dehydrated is to drink.

[Andy Robertson]

Originally Posted by pagan queen

I've been thinking about the growth rate of hatchlings in their first few years. I know a lot of people believe they should restrict food and grow them very slowly but talking to people on here, there are many who allow unrestricted eating and who's torts grow quickly. I myself have a 2 year old who has grown quickly and now measures 6 inches.
My theory is that in the wild a tiny hatchling would be at great risk of predation at such a small size. Therefore would it not make sense for them to be programmed to grow quickly in order to lessen the chances of predation?
My 2 year olds growth has slowed considerably, she has barely grown in the past couple of months even though she is still eating as much as she wants.

Interesting thread this,
I had a Herc hatch in January, only 7-8gr 30mm anyway after 100 days she was 12gr. I was a bit worried, but she was always active, drinking and eating. I decided to put her in with my two juveniles who are two yrs. That was in May, today she is 41gr and 56mm. She is in a planted 8ft x 3ft table with access to water and food 24/7. Her shell is very smooth, I did think of the grms per month thing, then thought that her shell is very smooth so carry on with the way I am looking after them. The theory you mentioned totally makes sense.
Again with my two year olds they too since coming out of hibernation end of January have grown a fair bit. One has went from 57gr-115gr 68mm-80mm, 49gr-95gr 63mm-74mm, again with very smooth shells.
Could the slow growth of my Herc in the beginning be down to the time of year she hatched? Then the sudden growth due to the change in season spring/summer?
Andy

[becciwales]

What should the humidity be as a rough guide? I get between 55 and 70%. Less under the light as it dries so fast.
With the limestone flour, would you sprinkle the food or put in a dish? Darwin doesn't use the cuttle bone at all. Just moves it if it's in his way. i have been sprinkling it on the food.
This is a great thread. I've learnt loads!! x