Tortoise Garden- update

[Bindi]

And what I'm not in favour of is the both of you turning every thread in which you cross paths into a personnal battle ground.

As far as I can see Chirs, you fired the first shot, but to be honest I couldn't care who starts it anymore. Quit it.

Be warned. If this does not stop I will delete the posts made by both you and Ed in this thread.

[justmeandmytortoise]

Reading this thread, I feel sorry for the Tortoise Garden who has offered help and a safe haven to so many Chelonia over the years and to those who have worked hard all year round. I hope visitors won’t be put off if reading these comments, as it needs support. I personally find it distasteful when criticising ‘someone’ in such a derogatory manner and to such an extent … especially when some people throwing the accusations have never even visited the place, and are going on hearsay or photos from a third party. (I appreciate I do not have to read it).

I feel constructive criticism is different when discussing general husbandry or general issues on diet, but for me it is ‘unpleasant’ when naming someone and criticising them. This thread was about a tortoise place closing ...

Hard for any Chelonia owner to admit how they keep their tortoise(s) for fear of the same derogatory comments being thrown at them. Hopefully someone genuinely needing help will ask … and anyone offering help will reply.


This year I had the pleasure of meeting a lovely man in his late 80’s. He proudly spoke of Fred, his adored tortoise whom his parents “bought from a pet shop for Two shillings and sixpence (a half crown) - 2/6” = 12.5p now! - for his 5th birthday. Fred was tiny when he got him. Fred was never kept in a tortoise table. Fred has never had Nutrobal or cuttlefish … “cuttlefish” he said to me …” that’s for birds, Fred’s a tortoise!”. Fred has never had UVL when indoors and no thermometers or other instruments to record humidity etc,. Fred has always enjoyed a garden. Fred has hibernated in straw in a box in the loft for years and is flat shelled, never had RNS, never been wormed, never been to the vets, is bright eyed and a good heavy weight. He eats fallen fruit (mainly peaches) and weeds and shop vegetables. The man spoke of how he “still chases me round the garden”, so very active. Fred is indeed a wonderful looking tortoise; a T graeca ibera. Sadly Fred’s owner has since died … but Fred lives on and is enjoying a wonderful new home somewhere. We only briefly knew Fred and his owner, but they touched our lives and I often thought of sharing with you and starting a post about Fred and his 2/6 life! But … Fred is different … he wasn’t brought up ‘by the book’, but how his owner thought best at the time and being a complete and utter coward for fear of the negative criticism … until now I never shared the story of Fred and his owner.

Fred's owner did him proud.

[EJ]

Very similar storys have been the point of many of my posts. My aunt (actually a good family friend in Bath who has since passed away) had such a tortoise in the garden. It was probably the first testudo I saw... 1969. A good number of those tortoises that 'died a horrible death' seem to be showing up lately.

I don't know anything about the center except from what I've read. I do hope help is offered and it is accepted.

Originally Posted by justmeandmytortoise

Reading this thread, I feel sorry for the Tortoise Garden who has offered help and a safe haven to so many Chelonia over the years and to those who have worked hard all year round. I hope visitors won’t be put off if reading these comments, as it needs support. I personally find it distasteful when criticising ‘someone’ in such a derogatory manner and to such an extent … especially when some people throwing the accusations have never even visited the place, and are going on hearsay or photos from a third party. (I appreciate I do not have to read it).

I feel constructive criticism is different when discussing general husbandry or general issues on diet, but for me it is ‘unpleasant’ when naming someone and criticising them. This thread was about a tortoise place closing ...

Hard for any Chelonia owner to admit how they keep their tortoise(s) for fear of the same derogatory comments being thrown at them. Hopefully someone genuinely needing help will ask … and anyone offering help will reply.


This year I had the pleasure of meeting a lovely man in his late 80’s. He proudly spoke of Fred, his adored tortoise whom his parents “bought from a pet shop for Two shillings and sixpence (a half crown) - 2/6” = 12.5p now! - for his 5th birthday. Fred was tiny when he got him. Fred was never kept in a tortoise table. Fred has never had Nutrobal or cuttlefish … “cuttlefish” he said to me …” that’s for birds, Fred’s a tortoise!”. Fred has never had UVL when indoors and no thermometers or other instruments to record humidity etc,. Fred has always enjoyed a garden. Fred has hibernated in straw in a box in the loft for years and is flat shelled, never had RNS, never been wormed, never been to the vets, is bright eyed and a good heavy weight. He eats fallen fruit (mainly peaches) and weeds and shop vegetables. The man spoke of how he “still chases me round the garden”, so very active. Fred is indeed a wonderful looking tortoise; a T graeca ibera. Sadly Fred’s owner has since died … but Fred lives on and is enjoying a wonderful new home somewhere. We only briefly knew Fred and his owner, but they touched our lives and I often thought of sharing with you and starting a post about Fred and his 2/6 life! But … Fred is different … he wasn’t brought up ‘by the book’, but how his owner thought best at the time and being a complete and utter coward for fear of the negative criticism … until now I never shared the story of Fred and his owner.

Fred's owner did him proud.

[Chris Newman]

Originally Posted by Bindi

And what I'm not in favour of is the both of you turning every thread in which you cross paths into a personnal battle ground.

As far as I can see Chirs, you fired the first shot, but to be honest I couldn't care who starts it anymore. Quit it.

Be warned. If this does not stop I will delete the posts made by both you and Ed in this thread.

I see, so you are quite content for others to make unsubstantiated allegations, you have no issue with that, but if I respond you object – interesting. Now I rarely post here and to the very best of my knowledge I don’t “turn every thread into a personal battle ground”! Notwithstanding that my position is I support responsible ownership of reptiles, including chelonians. The work Joy does at the Tortoise Garden is invaluable, she doesn’t walk on water or feed the five thousand, she is a good honest person dedicated to caring for tortoises, and does the very best she can with the resources available. Now I have no idea why others who allegedly care for chelonians have chosen to attack her, and frankly I don’t care, but I will not stand by and watch a thoroughly decent person reputation be trashed. Now, you can delete my posts, that is your prerogative, but do you really think censorship archives anything constrictive!

[EJ]

Chris... you misunderstood. That post was not directed at you. It was aimed at me and this other guy. We kind of have this love hate thing going on... normal forum BS... his name is Chris also.

For chelonians this is probably the best one in the UK with the most even keeled audience. You weren't off base posting here... You gotta ask... any forum that would allow me to hang out can't be all bad.

I think you'll find that most here will support your position.

Censorship here is virtually nonexistant until it goes over the top which is a very high top.

Originally Posted by Chris Newman

I see, so you are quite content for others to make unsubstantiated allegations, you have no issue with that, but if I respond you object – interesting. Now I rarely post here and to the very best of my knowledge I don’t “turn every thread into a personal battle ground”! Notwithstanding that my position is I support responsible ownership of reptiles, including chelonians. The work Joy does at the Tortoise Garden is invaluable, she doesn’t walk on water or feed the five thousand, she is a good honest person dedicated to caring for tortoises, and does the very best she can with the resources available. Now I have no idea why others who allegedly care for chelonians have chosen to attack her, and frankly I don’t care, but I will not stand by and watch a thoroughly decent person reputation be trashed. Now, you can delete my posts, that is your prerogative, but do you really think censorship archives anything constrictive!

[Bindi]

Originally Posted by Chris Newman

I see, so you are quite content for others to make unsubstantiated allegations, you have no issue with that, but if I respond you object – interesting. Now I rarely post here and to the very best of my knowledge I don’t “turn every thread into a personal battle ground”! Notwithstanding that my position is I support responsible ownership of reptiles, including chelonians. The work Joy does at the Tortoise Garden is invaluable, she doesn’t walk on water or feed the five thousand, she is a good honest person dedicated to caring for tortoises, and does the very best she can with the resources available. Now I have no idea why others who allegedly care for chelonians have chosen to attack her, and frankly I don’t care, but I will not stand by and watch a thoroughly decent person reputation be trashed. Now, you can delete my posts, that is your prerogative, but do you really think censorship archives anything constrictive!

I appologise, Ed is correct, my statement was absolutely not aimed at you or your posts

I should have used the user names of the members I was directing it at - for clarification it was red foot marg and EJ and the statement still stands

[Eire_Ade]

I think a good dose of chill pills are needed here!!!

Why does every thread have to end up in personal attacks and point scoring. Posters, if you have nothing constructive to say, how about saying nothing at all instead of just being destructive.

Its all about tortoises for god sake, we all have our own ways of doing things, but it doesnt mean that everything we do is right or wrong either, "there is more than one way to skin a rabbit".

[tortoisetrust]

Originally Posted by Chris Newman

Andy,

My apologies for the protracted delay in reply but I have been rather busy this passed week or so and your reply has only just been brought to my attention.

First and foremost it is somewhat what disingenuous of you to suggest you offered help, you didn’t, your interest was purely in rehoming the animals when I contacted you!

You attack on Joy is purely biased on misinformation and your own, well I can’t put it in any other terms – fantasies. You admit you have no first hand experience of the Tortoise Garden and yet you see fit to make ‘pronouncements’ biased purely on second or third hand information! Personally I think that is absolutely disgraceful. However, I must accept reasonability for this as I was stupid enough to think you might have been inserted in helping someone who is actually doing something hands on to help tortoises in need, with hindsight I really should have know better.

Mr. Newman,

To suggest our "only interest was rehoming" is completely bonkers. It really is. Totally mad. Our rehoming system is overloaded already (just ask Julie Sankey - just look at the public list we have available), we cannot cope with the numbers we are being asked to deal with on a daily basis due to continued reckless importation by the trade. We could not deal with rehoming 500 tortoises, as simple as that. We have no wish to deal with it. We are far too busy trying to find homes for the animals already "on the books". We do not want, and cannot cope with more. We offered Joy technical help with resolving some of the nutrition problems and some financial help to try to improve housing and hygiene. This was conveyed in a private email to Joy - not to you. She has already stated she has no interest in rehoming anything, incidentally. If, by chance, she ever needs to do so, we will not be involved for two reasons, the first as set out above, the second because we would consider them too high risk, given the lack of quarantine and species-mixing that has taken place. We could not in conscience ask anyone to take on that kind of liability.

As for "second hand" information, I am sorry to say photos and videos do not fall into that category. They clearly show the situation. I also very much trust the first-hand reports made to us. I rather suspect that if I were to visit in person, you would find you like what I had to say even less.

Maybe - just for a change - you could stop running away from direct, straight questions and provide some equally straight answers? I have asked some of these previously, but was not granted the common courtesy of a reply.

1) Describe the diets used at this premises
2) Detail the quarantine arrangements in place
3) List which species have been mixed with others
4) Explain how "holiday homers" came to be placed in the general population
5) Clarify the position on tortoise sales from the premises. You claim to know all the facts, so let's have it. It has been alleged (by others, not us) that tortoises bred by other breeders were sold at the Tortoise Garden. Is this true or false?
6) If true, explain why no Pet Shop Licence would be required.
7) At any time have animals been displayed there for commercial purposes without Article 10 certificates in force?
8) Is there an upper limit on how many tortoises The Tortoise Garden will accept?

You seem to be acting as their spokesperson and claim all kinds of inside knowledge, so how about some real answers? These are simple questions that an awful lot of people would like to know the truth about.

I am not really interested in hearing anything else from you except straight answers to the above.

Andy C. Highfield
Tortoise Trust
Jill Martin Fund for Tortoise Welfare & Conservation

[tortoisetrust]

Ed,

Sorry, but I really, really don't have time to get into this diet or "captive vs. wild" thing again, and I have already explained why I object to mixing species. Feel free to disagree on both points. I have just spent all day out in the field, scrabbling up rocky slopes in 34 degrees (C) and right now, you know, I find a cold beer considerably more interesting.

You really should try to get over here you know. Maybe one day we could argue this into the wee hours.... one thing I would be interested in seeing if you can manage it, is some photos of fecal pellets of the tortoises you maintain on your recommended diets. That really would be interesting.

Andy C. Highfield
Tortoise Trust
Jill Martin Fund for Tortoise Welfare & Conservation

[Chris Newman]

Originally Posted by tortoisetrust

Mr. Newman,

To suggest our "only interest was rehoming" is completely bonkers. It really is. Totally mad. Our rehoming system is overloaded already (just ask Julie Sankey - just look at the public list we have available), we cannot cope with the numbers we are being asked to deal with on a daily basis due to continued reckless importation by the trade. We could not deal with rehoming 500 tortoises, as simple as that. We have no wish to deal with it. We are far too busy trying to find homes for the animals already "on the books". We do not want, and cannot cope with more. We offered Joy technical help with resolving some of the nutrition problems and some financial help to try to improve housing and hygiene. This was conveyed in a private email to Joy - not to you. She has already stated she has no interest in rehoming anything, incidentally. If, by chance, she ever needs to do so, we will not be involved for two reasons, the first as set out above, the second because we would consider them too high risk, given the lack of quarantine and species-mixing that has taken place. We could not in conscience ask anyone to take on that kind of liability.

As for "second hand" information, I am sorry to say photos and videos do not fall into that category. They clearly show the situation. I also very much trust the first-hand reports made to us. I rather suspect that if I were to visit in person, you would find you like what I had to say even less.

Maybe - just for a change - you could stop running away from direct, straight questions and provide some equally straight answers? I have asked some of these previously, but was not granted the common courtesy of a reply.

1) Describe the diets used at this premises
2) Detail the quarantine arrangements in place
3) List which species have been mixed with others
4) Explain how "holiday homers" came to be placed in the general population
5) Clarify the position on tortoise sales from the premises. You claim to know all the facts, so let's have it. It has been alleged (by others, not us) that tortoises bred by other breeders were sold at the Tortoise Garden. Is this true or false?
6) If true, explain why no Pet Shop Licence would be required.
7) At any time have animals been displayed there for commercial purposes without Article 10 certificates in force?
8) Is there an upper limit on how many tortoises The Tortoise Garden will accept?

You seem to be acting as their spokesperson and claim all kinds of inside knowledge, so how about some real answers? These are simple questions that an awful lot of people would like to know the truth about.

I am not really interested in hearing anything else from you except straight answers to the above.

Andy C. Highfield
Tortoise Trust
Jill Martin Fund for Tortoise Welfare & Conservation

Andy it appears to me your memory is rather short, I approached you in June 2010 to see if the TT would help, within a couple of emails exchanges you had tuned a request for help into a into a major ‘drama’ without any first hand experience, rather relighting on second or third hand information! It is very clear Andy you made your mind up there and there and then and nothing will change it. Now, I have neither time not inclination to play games with you, if you are not willing to help, as has become abundantly clear then fine, but perhaps you would have the courtesy to at least not exacerbate the problems!

From: Tortoise Trust <tortoisetrust@aol.com>
To: Chris Newman <Chris-Newman@cviewmedia.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 9:03:20 AM
Subject: The Tortoise Garden PS

===8<==============Original message text===============
Chris,

I have now spoken to Paul, and also to a reptile vet and a (human) doctor who is also a very experienced herpetologist who have all visited the site. There are serious problems there. They report gross overcrowding, the random mixing of species, lack of quarantine and the placing of temporary "holiday homers" straight into pens full of other tortoises without (apparently) even a thought for the potential consequences. In short, biosecurity has been absolutely zero, and with chelonian herpes such a growing problem that is just asking for trouble. The result is that if she has to relocate animals from that site, you can factor in the need for extended quarantine and mandatory herpes testing for every animal to be moved. She also needs to take no more animals in under any circumstances, even if she does manage to become "legalised". In terms of the potential for a herpes epidemic, the place is a ticking time bomb. Dietary management has also been extremely poor, but that is a minor detail compared to the above.

As I mentioned yesterday, we have made a formal offer of technical and financial aid to Joy, but I have not yet had a response.

If she does continue in operation in any form at all, she really needs to address these very serious issues as a matter of urgency.

Any feeling on how DEFRA might be disposed to deal with the Article 10 matter?

Regards,

Andy

Joy’s response when I forwarded her you email!

How DARE this man make such sweeping statements about me???? I NEVER put holiday boarders in with my own tortoises, they have separate quarters altogether, all new animals are quarantined, species are separate unless I get a group or a pair in that are different and they have lived together all their lives. I am very much aware of the dangers of a herpes epidemic, it hovers over the head of every tortoise keeper I would imagine. He HAS had a response from me to yesterdays mail but he will never receive another one. I will keep the place shut rather than ever have him here. I am NOT a ticking time bomb, I am very much aware of cross infection, overcrowding etc. This has crushed me, it makes a mockery of his good reputation as a tortoise vet, does he think he is the only person qualified to look after tortoises??????? How can someone supposedly intelligent make statements like that without ever having been here???? I am utterly disgusted by his comments, I refute them, why didn’t his doctor friend or his vet friend say something to me because I always talk to the visitors. No one has ever seen me put a holiday tortoise straight into a pen with my tortoises because they always go up to my private terrace where all the boarders go. Sorry Chris, I can’t talk about this, I just want to crawl away and die!!!!!