Pyramiding of Shell (humid hides)

[Alan1]

Does this apply to all torts then or just desert ones? Have they done this same study on Hermanns'?

[Kirkie]

The full Kruger article refers to Testudo species as do Andy Highfield's burrow humidity comments above.

The pro humid hide reading I have from Jerry Fife in the US is in relation to Stars and Leopards.

The good thing about the humid hide discussion is that results are already being seen in young tortoises. This does seem to be, for whatever reason, beneficial.

[Ozric Jonathan]

Many people are convinced about there being a link between humidity and smooth shell growth, as well as general health, in hermann tortoises. I have found that my very young ones do spend a lot of time hiding out in a humid hide. In nature, they might avoid being exposed more than necessary because of their vulnerability, and piles of leaves and vegetation are more humid than sitting in the open.

This raises an important question for me at least, do they not need as much UV as adults? If they are hiding a lot then they are not getting much UV.

Its important to offer a choice of hiding place I think.

[Alan1]

Originally Posted by Ozric Jonathan

Many people are convinced about there being a link between humidity and smooth shell growth, as well as general health, in hermann tortoises. I have found that my very young ones do spend a lot of time hiding out in a humid hide. In nature, they might avoid being exposed more than necessary because of their vulnerability, and piles of leaves and vegetation are more humid than sitting in the open.

This raises an important question for me at least, do they not need as much UV as adults? If they are hiding a lot then they are not getting much UV.

Its important to offer a choice of hiding place I think.

Good question Johnathan.

I am struggling to take in all the different information about the same things like:
humidity = shell rot/humidity = smooth shell growth
hibernation = necessary/hibernation = unnecessary
too much UVB/not enough UVB, soil and sand/bark and woodchips, bark holds water = shell rot and respiratory problems/no it doesn't/yes it does.

We have the same thing with fishkeeping.. this is the best thing since sliced bread/no it isn't/yes it is and the same thing with humans.. eating grapefruit is beneficial in fighting breast cancer/grapefruit can increase the risk of getting breast cancer.. red wine is good/red wine is not good.

Over the years I've read many a report about a new way or better way of keeping fish which was always followed by a new product on the market which everyone went mad buying only to ditch 2 years down the line when it turned out to be nonsense.

I don't see any marketable products coming from the humid hide report (unless perhaps ready made humid hides with a little drip feed water tank above) but I think 5 months is quite a short study for anyone to be saying it's definitely the way to go

[Kirkie]

Humid hides first. These are not a new thing, it’s that the successes have become visible with recent publication. The Fife brothers (successful Tortoise breeders in the US) have been advocating them for years. Results are visible in the short term (unlike the hibernation and formulated food questions, which given the life expectancy of a tortoise, I personally feel will not be known for years).
Pyramiding in tortoises can start in very young ones so you can tell from an early age if a particular method is having an effect. The question regarding humidity being good or bad for a tortoise is that with a humid hide you are offering an area of humidity in an otherwise fairly arid environment. Keeping a Med tortoise fully in an environment with the humidity levels of a hide would result in problems. The point is to give the animal the choice.
You are going to find new ideas in Chelonian husbandry, look back to the early pages of this forum or search for “hemp” and you’ll see it was standard bedding. One warning from the Tortoise Trust and it’s abandoned by most (me included).
Which brings me on to my last point. You are going to see differing opinions on all the subjects you have mentioned. Personally I’ve never encountered a UK keeper who does not advocate hibernation, I have it on good authority that not hibernating Med species is common practise in the US. There is a tendency for the advocates of either to make claims of owners “following the crowd” (much in the way you’ve said how an idea in Fish keeping spreads like wild fire to become the accepted norm in a short time).
At the end of the day it is your decision. I would suggest reading everything you can about the origin and behaviour of your animals and decide whether your aim is to replicate as closely as possible their natural existence.
I’ve found from bitter recent experience that blind faith in any one method is a dangerous thing so I hope your questions are backed up with evidence. But how do you classify a success with an animal that should outlive us?

[Kirkie]

Just a thought on Jonathans UV question. The same amount of UV will be available to both hachlings and adults. Could it be that it takes less time for a small tortoise to receive a suffcient % uptake than an adult due to the body size?

This explains the processes involved http://www.uvguide.co.uk/vitdpathway.htm

[lindso3000]

is this acceptable for horsfields also? i thought they liked it very dry, but i will make one if it works

[Alan1]

Originally Posted by Kirkie

I hope your questions are backed up with evidence.

I'm not sure what you mean by that Kirkie, evidence of what?

What I mean in general is just as I think I'm doing the right thing going by what I've read, I discover that I may be doing more harm than good yet there is no way of knowing for sure

[Kirkie]

HI inds,

I haven't come across any reference to Horsfield's in relation to humid hides.

Of the Med species I've seen Gracea mentioned and I use them for my Hermann's. Hermann's come from a pretty lush environment compared to a Horsfield.

Alex posted an Andy Highfield quote:

"Even in habitats such as the Sonoran Desert in AZ, or in T. horsfielldi burrows in Central Asia, burrow humidity very rarely exceeds 45%. It is frequently very much lower, below 20%.

Indoors the average humidity on my tortoise tables is around 40% so pretty close to the AH figure for a Horsfield burrow.

You could certainly give it a go but I'd monitor the humidity in the hide. Mine are around 70-75% humidity when sprayed you could try putting a moss roof on an existing hide and spraying that so you get 50-60% humidity?

The key point is to give the tortoise a choice, don't make the humid hide the only one available. I've got virtually identical hides and they prefer to use the humid one but your Horsfields might think differently

[Kirkie]

Originally Posted by caledonia

I'm not sure what you mean by that Kirkie, evidence of what?

What I mean in general is just as I think I'm doing the right thing going by what I've read, I discover that I may be doing more harm than good yet there is no way of knowing for sure

Sorry,

I wasn't trying to confuse things it's just that everything is based on point of view rather than hard fact. I've seen no evidence of the long term effects of not hibernating a "hibernating" species because long term for a tortoise should exceed a human lifetime. Even the most long term keeper I know of has around 30 years experience to it's hard to quantify sucess on a lot of these subjects. At this point both camps can point to their tortoises and say "they're still alive" .

Humid hides, there does seem to be sucess in the prevention of pyramiding when they are used. But used in conjuction with good nutrition, hydration, heating and lighting.

What quantifies these four criteria starts the discussion over again I'm afraid.