Thread to discuss THE hibernating issue

[pagan queen]

I was very interested in the discussion that started in Doodleboppers thread. If the man, from the Netherlands (can't remember his name) could re-post his theory re Hibernating I would be interested to re-read them and have the opinions of the other people to discuss.

I hope I am not causing any trouble here, I really am interested to see both sides of the discussion so I can make an informed decision.

[kreacher]

Personally I chose not to hibernate kreacher...I don't feel it necessary at all...but I don't Want to start an argument and everytime I mention hibernating I start a row so I'll leave it there lol x

[vikiilou89]

im in the same boat, cant make up my mind about hiberation. so will be good to see what everyone writes x

[Bindi]

Hibernation is always a hot topic, people have strong views both for and against.

Don't think you are starting arguments kreacher, the mention of the word usually starts a debate, that's all

Without debate and discussing views and ideas, we would be stuck with one or two peoples opinions, and then we would never advance our knowledge, or make our own choices.

[skildpadde]

Hi
Here are my reasons to hibernate, for what it's worth
I like trying to mirror what they are doing in the wild. I completely get the oppositions p.o.w that torts in captivity do not *need* to hibernate, and that what's natural and what's optimal is not necessarily the same....
But here goes:
For me it is a quality of life issue. My Iberas live in a 55 by 29 foot 'enclosure' (otherwise known as my garden) and they use all that space extensively. It is my personal opinion that mediterranean torts really need to live outside in the sunshine for optimal conditions. And even with the biggest tortoise table imaginable with the best uv lights etc, I cannot provide what I feel they need during the winter.
Witness the threads from people who's tortoises seem to be going bonkers when taken indoors in the autumn, frantically trying to escape their tables.
And the threads from people who's torts are winding down and being inactive despite owners providing heat, lights etc.
So for me I would rather my torts spent the months where they cannot be outside, being inactive in hibernation. It is not risk free, but as I see it, it's the best option for me and my torts.
Mette

[Kenneth]

Guess you're referring to me as "The Dutch Guy"..
Almost makes me want to change my nickname

Here's my opinion about hibernating Mediterranean Tortoises.


First of all; in their natural habitat they hibernate. That's part of their natural cycle. I personally think we're obliged to mimic their natural way of life as good as possible. If you don't want to hibernate your tortoise, then why don't you choose a tropical species that doesn't hibernate at all, instead of choosing a species that does and then keep it awake, against nature...
Again.. that's my personal opinion.

Hibernation isn't just a phase in which both sexes tune, but a hormonal development in its purest form. An important development of the animal.
In addition, the hibernation period is period of growth stagnation.

Over here (in the Netherlands, Belgium) there have been reports of Hermann's tortoises in indoor enclosures (with fluorescent lights and heatlamps) that suddenly became inactive, refused to eat.
These tortoises all had their vivs near a window... so they were aware of shortening day lenght.
Nowadays, Dutch / Belgian keepers agree that the shortening daylight intensity / day(light)lenght triggers the animals into wanting to hibernate.
In other words: The animals themselves indicate they're ready to hibernate.

This I can say from experience.. It happened to my 2 hermanns about 4½ weeks ago..

Another European vision is that hibernation decreases the chance of a pyramid shaped carapax.
We believe that a pyramid carapax is being caused by the following cases:

- Too much high proteïn food (catfood for instance causes rapid internal growth because of the high amount of proteïns.. the tortoise will grow faster then the shell can keep up with. In addition catfood / animal proteïns lead to kidney failure, blatter stones... As concluded by several vets, who are also on the Dutch Tortoise forums.
One should feed its Hermanns only weeds and some vegetables. In case of the last, additional fibres should be added.

- Too dry environment.
The connective tissue between carapax plates on juvenile torts is very vulnerable. One should provide a thick layer of moist substrate for the torts to dig / sleep in. The moist substrate humidifies the carapax, particularly the connective tissue. This will prefent malformations of the shell.

- Lack of calcium:
Obviously, an animal with a boney-like shell needs a high amount of calcium in its diët. Insufficiënt amounts of calcium will cause malformation of shell and bones.

- Vitamine D3
Needed to absorb calcium...
Just one problem... It's difficult to provide the exact dose needed.
Overdosing Ã*s possible.. and an overdose is just as bad as a deficit.
So over here in Europe, we prefer the use of UV lamps (or, even better.. the sun)

- UV light.
UV light makes the animals "produce" vitamine D3 themselves.
In addition, tortoises can "see" UV light and it helps them recognize mates, edible plants and so on....

-Hibernation
The hibernation period is a period of growth stagnation.
Hermanns will eat all day long, if given the opportunity.
Therefor, one should dose the amount of food.
It is known that these animals continu to grow untill they die.
When young, the grow "rapidly"... when old it is hardly even observable, but still.. they grow.
If they're kept awake.. they will eat during a periode when they most likely (if considered their natural behaviour / lifestyle) would be immobile and sleeping. So they are unnaturally growing, when kept awake.
Eventually, it will shorthen their life... letting them become..say.. 60 years instead of 90.
In addition, they'll get bigger / heavier / lumpier then their natural cousins.



As mentionned before, If they don't hibernate, they become less fertile..
So if you think about it... denying them to hibernate, makes them weaker.. less reproducable... That can't be healthy for them..


In the previous topic, I was asked for scientific documents and stuff.
Have to be honoust; I don't have any.
This "knowledge" as posted above is from personal experience, as well from the experience of breeders who succesfully breed and keepTestudo hermanni boettgeri for decades.

[pagan queen]

Thanks Mette, you have some very interesting views and worth considering. How long do you hibernate for and what method do you use?

If you could provide an area as large as your garden, would you still Hibernate?

My Ibera adult has the whole of our conservatory to roam (12ft by 10ft) he has the same on bad summer days and never seems to be unhappy as with torts on tables. He spends his days as he does in the garden. The only difference will be that he has some pellets as well as his weeds.

My Ibera hatchling will carry on living in her indoor enclosure in the living room.

[Kenneth]

It is not risk free, but as I see it, it's the best option for me and my torts

Damn, your English is good
I totally agree on everything you said in the above.

As for the quote..
Indoor hibernation (in a refridgerator) is a very controllable way of hibernating your tortoises. I wouldn't want to say "risk-free", but would like to call it "with hardy any risks at all". I'll try to explain.

Only healthy torts should hibernate.
So if your tort makes a healthy impression (active, shiny eyes.. having a good appetite) you're good. Over here, we let a vet check the manure for parasites.
If parasites are found, we treat the animal... It then has to be kept awake for at least 8 weeks in order to let all of the antibiotics get out of its system.

If the animal makes a healthy impression, has a good weight Ã*nd does not have parasites, it will go into hibernation.

Previous to the actual hibernation, we ( I ) go through an 8 weeks protocol
First week, we shorten daylenght (lightbulbs) and duration of heatlamp.
Gradually, in a few weeks we reduced daylenght to maximum of 4 hours, with an additional 2 hours of heat provided.
In the last two weeks, the animals will not sleep in a heated environment, but in a non-heated bedroom.. Nighttemperature will be even colder then they used to have... During that same period, no food is provided anymore.
Eventually, the animals will be placed in a moist substrate in a refridgerator.

I check them once every week, look at their noses, cloaca, reflexes and I weigh them. A maximum of 5% weightloss is accepted. If more weight is lost, I will wake them and "start them up".

Personally, I think this method is pretty risk free, since you're "on top of things" every week. If something might be wrong, you're well in time to take any actions...

[Alan1]

I do not hibernate mine mostly because of the problems I've seen people report on here during and after hibernation

[ziggy's owner]

I won't hibernate mine, for one weight for two I don't see the need.... I have read via someone on here I think that wild torts only sleep and if a warm day come along they wake up and then have a wonder around, then go bk down once it's cold again, to me if a tort does that in the wild, why hibernate????