Feeding Regime

[Alan1]

So there may not be such a thing as a 'hibernating species' and it may all be down to location?

[EJ]

That's my point and belief but I'm sure there are limits.

Originally Posted by caledonia

So there may not be such a thing as a 'hibernating species' and it may all be down to location?

[K&N]

EJ wrote in the first comment:

I don't have a problem with growth rate because I feed a nutritional diet and I live in a climate that is advantageous to good growth. I let the animals do their own thing which is what they do in the wild.

So you keep your tortoises out side all the time.
I'm curious, what would you do, if you were in my shoes (I live in Finland) and you had to keep them inside?
Or would you just not have tortoises at all in so cold climate?

In Finland the hibernating seems to be "the right way to do things". And every one who doesn't hibernate their tortoises is not considered very "professional".
(Here people mostly have Testudo Hermanni or Horsfieldii that are considered "hibernating species") So, if some one doesn't hibernate, they say it's because they are afraid the tortoise will hurt or die, but that they would do it, if they new how to and had the courage. No one dares to argue that the hibernation should not be done at all.

[EJ]

ummmmm... no.

I keep my larger tortoises outdoors as long as I can. I use heat mats for when the temperatures get cool at night. I bring them in if it drops below freezing.

I have tortoises indoors. There are some species that I do not do well with outdoors... Stars, Chacos, Egyptians and Russians in addition to babies.

I grew up in New York City... where I had tortoises for about 6 years when I moved out.

Different groups have different ways of thinking. One more time... I'm not saying not to hibernate... I'm saying it is not necessary.

Most of those that do hibernate usually do so to induce breeding behavior. They also usually do not hibernate young or sick animals.

Many of the Europeans hibernate naturally... they provide a hibernaculum and allow the tortoise to dig down when they are good and ready. There is very little direct control in most cases.

I can't stress this point enough... hibernation is not necessary. Reading through all these posts you really can't find a reason to hibernate outside of... it's natural... it probably provides some benefit(which I don't see).

A reason not to hibernate... it's a risk... an unnecessary risk.

Originally Posted by K&N

EJ wrote in the first comment:


So you keep your tortoises out side all the time.
I'm curious, what would you do, if you were in my shoes (I live in Finland) and you had to keep them inside?
Or would you just not have tortoises at all in so cold climate?

In Finland the hibernating seems to be "the right way to do things". And every one who doesn't hibernate their tortoises is not considered very "professional".
(Here people mostly have Testudo Hermanni or Horsfieldii that are considered "hibernating species") So, if some one doesn't hibernate, they say it's because they are afraid the tortoise will hurt or die, but that they would do it, if they new how to and had the courage. No one dares to argue that the hibernation should not be done at all.

[Pussygalore]

sorry Ej but I've seen the photos of your enclosures and there wasn't unlimited food in them in fact the majority of them were bare so you must be feeding them, don't you also feed pellets so they must have a dish of soaked food once a day or similar?. Unless I'm stupid that is limiting their food, allowing them access to unlimited food or natural behaviour to me would mean they have access to grazing 24 hours. If you have since changed your enclosures my apologies, my adults DO have access to grazing all the year round and this means there is green food growing in the runs, they have enough space to roam and can choose when and what they eat. Another thing where has the 'feed the amount to cover the shells' gone! this post must be very confusing to new members or even old ones where the above was always quoted in reply to the question 'how much do I feed' and if you allow unlimited food does'nt that also throw out of the window the '2-4 gram weight gain' quote. If there has been a major rethink on here by the people that matter and are listened to then might it not be a good idea to say so especially to the new members or even the old ones including myself who are now totally confused about the amounts to feed and the weight gains to use as a guide.

[EJ]

Of course I feed them. There is a reason the ground is bare... they eat everything... leaves... what little grows... branches... pine needles... pine cones... Grass clilppings... in addition to what I feed them. They also get fruit and vegetable table scraps.

I feed the pelleted diet every 2 or 3 days. As mentioned in many previous posts... that food is limited because of it's nutritional content.

You're going to have to point out where I said 'feed enough to cover there shells'.

Nowhere do I say feed unlimited food... I do say you can feed a green diet without a limit.

No where do I ever state a 'normal' weight gain. A healthy tortoise will gain weight and grow... rate should never be a concern unless it is grossly extreme.

You might want to check the archives because I've said this forever... that's kind of a mistake to rely on any one source of information. There are also some good books out there outside of the internet.

A tortoise is not a goldfish. It's a complex reptile. Like a machine... the better you understand it the more likely it will work for you. You cannot raise a tortoise via 'cook book' method. There is too much grey area and too many variables you can screw up.

Originally Posted by Pussygalore

sorry Ej but I've seen the photos of your enclosures and there wasn't unlimited food in them in fact the majority of them were bare so you must be feeding them, don't you also feed pellets so they must have a dish of soaked food once a day or similar?. Unless I'm stupid that is limiting their food, allowing them access to unlimited food or natural behaviour to me would mean they have access to grazing 24 hours. If you have since changed your enclosures my apologies, my adults DO have access to grazing all the year round and this means there is green food growing in the runs, they have enough space to roam and can choose when and what they eat. Another thing where has the 'feed the amount to cover the shells' gone! this post must be very confusing to new members or even old ones where the above was always quoted in reply to the question 'how much do I feed' and if you allow unlimited food does'nt that also throw out of the window the '2-4 gram weight gain' quote. If there has been a major rethink on here by the people that matter and are listened to then might it not be a good idea to say so especially to the new members or even the old ones including myself who are now totally confused about the amounts to feed and the weight gains to use as a guide.

[joanna]

Originally Posted by Pussygalore

sorry Ej but I've seen the photos of your enclosures and there wasn't unlimited food in them in fact the majority of them were bare so you must be feeding them, don't you also feed pellets so they must have a dish of soaked food once a day or similar?. Unless I'm stupid that is limiting their food, allowing them access to unlimited food or natural behaviour to me would mean they have access to grazing 24 hours. If you have since changed your enclosures my apologies, my adults DO have access to grazing all the year round and this means there is green food growing in the runs, they have enough space to roam and can choose when and what they eat. Another thing where has the 'feed the amount to cover the shells' gone! this post must be very confusing to new members or even old ones where the above was always quoted in reply to the question 'how much do I feed' and if you allow unlimited food does'nt that also throw out of the window the '2-4 gram weight gain' quote. If there has been a major rethink on here by the people that matter and are listened to then might it not be a good idea to say so especially to the new members or even the old ones including myself who are now totally confused about the amounts to feed and the weight gains to use as a guide.

I don't keep meds but always read through posts with interest. I've never understood the 2-4 gram gain. Surely you wouldn't want your tortoise gaining the same weight monthly as it did as a hatchling. A growing tortoise should gain more each month over the years in my opinion.

Also reading the 1st post on this thread, I agree totally. I don't restict food here. I don't see any evidence that it is related to pyramiding, its not as simple as that. If the right heat, hydration, diet, supplements are offered it should grow well?

I always hear in the wild they dont eat all year, yes they aestivate when temps aren't in their favour, they hibernate when temps aren't in their favour. But when temps are favourable they are active and eating. Keeping at these temps in captivity surely food shouldn't be restricted as at at these temps they are requiring food?

[Pussygalore]

Don't you think then that a first time owner with a new hatchling should have some idea of how much to feed? weren't you ever one of those? I know I was and yes now I don't worry so much but I certainly did then and having weight guide however rough was a great help. Many torts don't have very much room to roam so don't have the chance to burn off the food as they would in nature, if we didn't limit those torts and they just sat there and ate I hate to think what they'd look like. Yes there are 'expert' members but there are probably as many new and needing help ones if not more, its how most of us found our ways to the forums, so to read that apparently there is now no need to watch the weight or 'control' what some torts eat must be confusing. There are also as many owners who will never be interested in the science side of keeping torts but simply want them as a pet so again isn't it in their interests to have simple information as well as the in depth stuff for the more experienced. I for one do tell my potential owners the rough weight guide as untill they have some experience to call on or have passed the initial worried about everything stage something as simple as a set of scales can make their lives easier and I think gives the babies a better chance of growing evenly. After a few months of tort owning hopefuly those new owners will have learnt enough to use their own judgement but those first weeks of a new tort are very stressfull and worrying about everything is very normal.

[EJ]

Never gave much thought to quantity. I've always fed as much as they would in one sitting and that was it. As long as you are not feeding anything high in fats or oils... how could they get overweight?

Again, by feeding a highly varied diet or a diet you know is balanced such as the pelleted diet weight should not be a worry.

You do have to control what they eat. You don't have to control how much they eat where a green diet is concerned if you have enough variety.

You can't get any more simple than the information I offer. That information is based on the simplest means of keeping the tortoise healthy with the greatest margin of error.

Originally Posted by Pussygalore

Don't you think then that a first time owner with a new hatchling should have some idea of how much to feed? weren't you ever one of those? I know I was and yes now I don't worry so much but I certainly did then and having weight guide however rough was a great help. Many torts don't have very much room to roam so don't have the chance to burn off the food as they would in nature, if we didn't limit those torts and they just sat there and ate I hate to think what they'd look like. Yes there are 'expert' members but there are probably as many new and needing help ones if not more, its how most of us found our ways to the forums, so to read that apparently there is now no need to watch the weight or 'control' what some torts eat must be confusing. There are also as many owners who will never be interested in the science side of keeping torts but simply want them as a pet so again isn't it in their interests to have simple information as well as the in depth stuff for the more experienced. I for one do tell my potential owners the rough weight guide as untill they have some experience to call on or have passed the initial worried about everything stage something as simple as a set of scales can make their lives easier and I think gives the babies a better chance of growing evenly. After a few months of tort owning hopefuly those new owners will have learnt enough to use their own judgement but those first weeks of a new tort are very stressfull and worrying about everything is very normal.

[ziggy's owner]

Now I'm confused Lol, I don't limit my torts to food should I or should I not??? My torts are fed everyday even the ones in grassy/weed areas, am I doing wrong or us this the right way, I have never fed just the amount to cover the shell j always give them enough so they eat and then sleep