Sex/sub species help please

[gregnobes]

why cant u keep her with your THB?
IMO as long as they dont try mating they will be fine
its just different species u cant mix not subspecies

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by gregnobes

why cant u keep her with your THB?
IMO as long as they dont try mating they will be fine
its just different species u cant mix not subspecies

Hi the trouble is they will attempt mating mine are all outside 24/7 in a large enclosure with shed so i can't guarantee they won't.

[gregnobes]

okay dont incubate the eggs if she does lay any

[EJ]

I'd like to know the very same question...

Before you make such a rash decision based on one opinion you might want to look long and hard and passing along such a nice looking tortoise that seems to be a female.

I've got 3 Testudo hermanni. There does seem to be a difference between T.h.h. and T.h.b. but T.b.h is really ambiguous. I can't tell the difference with any certainty and it seems like the leading authorities always add the disclaimer that there are exceptions. (at least the objective idendifiers do)

I've yet to find any papers which have done any DNA studies on the group to support the splitting of the different populations. If these were distinct populations... why not call them different species.

I'd suggest not getting rid of the animal unless you know for sure what it is (which I think will never happen).

Over time those in captivity will become so watered down it will not matter... they will all be Testudo hermanni.

Unless the keep collected the original animals or knows first hand the origin of the parents... it is all one BFG.

Originally Posted by Wendy

For future referrence can you tell me why this is def a Herc and why she can't be kept with my other THB's.

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by EJ

I'd like to know the very same question...

Before you make such a rash decision based on one opinion you might want to look long and hard and passing along such a nice looking tortoise that seems to be a female.

I've got 3 Testudo hermanni. There does seem to be a difference between T.h.h. and T.h.b. but T.b.h is really ambiguous. I can't tell the difference with any certainty and it seems like the leading authorities always add the disclaimer that there are exceptions. (at least the objective idendifiers do)

I've yet to find any papers which have done any DNA studies on the group to support the splitting of the different populations. If these were distinct populations... why not call them different species.

I'd suggest not getting rid of the animal unless you know for sure what it is (which I think will never happen).

Over time those in captivity will become so watered down it will not matter... they will all be Testudo hermanni.

Unless the keep collected the original animals or knows first hand the origin of the parents... it is all one BFG.

Hi and thanks for the reply, to be honest i agree with you and have give her a home with me and mine. From what i have read and seen if i had come across this tortoise 15 years ago would be none the wiser. The present owners are not sure as they re-homed her about 5 years ago themselves.

[EJ]

Without DNA comparisons I don't see how anyone can be sure of the diffeences. I've been able to compare 100s in 25 to 50 lots... the varience was just too great. I wish I had the time and the sense to take photos of all those that went through my hands... all adult or subadult.

As you say... years ago... who knew. This is the same with all Testudo. Everyone wants to make their mark for all prosterity without due consideration... like naming a new genus and species based on one old specimen.

Who knows DNA... testing may come in a take home kit in the years to come... like pregnancy tests.

Originally Posted by Wendy

Hi and thanks for the reply, to be honest i agree with you and have give her a home with me and mine. From what i have read and seen if i had come across this tortoise 15 years ago would be none the wiser. The present owners are not sure as they re-homed her about 5 years ago themselves.