Box Turtles - Do they..can they? - Page 3

romski · 17-09-2009, 10:59 PM

We saw similar behaviour in Hamm this week end. The female did the same thing just prior to mating. Its as if she was making sure she was clean back there before her man came along.

**egyptiandan64** · 17-09-2009, 11:03 PM

Actually when a female does that in the presence of a male she is telling the male she is ready to mate. I've seen quite a few of my females do that. I've even had a Black breasted leaf turtle female do it.

I call it the "come get me big boy" dance.

I have seen papers saying the exact opposite with box turtles Paul. It was in Copeia, I do believe, and they were trying to tell if a male box turtle could smell a female or needed to see her. From their tests a male box turtle needs to see a female to breed with her. So they must not run into the opposite sex that often in the wild. I'm sure thats why females have the capacity to store sperm for many years as the chances of running into a male every year are slim.

Danny

Star · 17-09-2009, 11:16 PM

A very interesting subject....sorry I cant offer any valuable advice.

Kirkie · 17-09-2009, 11:24 PM

I think I read that article Dan. Didn't they do things like use a moving wooden replica and a box turtle skeleton to gauge the males reaction? Probably a bit more in depth than that but those are the bits I remember.

Anyhoo, It seems odd that scent wouldn't play a part, the box turtle in question gauges everything by having a good long sniff of it first. Another indearing habit

If anyone wants to lend me a male to test all this out.....I would love to witness the "come and get me big boy" box turtle dance for myself.

Kirkie · 18-09-2009, 07:18 PM

Is this the one? Referenced on pages 3 & 4

http://www.gctts.org/BTPT/Box_Turt_i...Cons_Jul04.pdf

On the other hand...

Box Turtles by Patricia Pope Bartlett, Page 34.

"It is known that most reptiles produce pheromones, scented hormones relating to reproduction. Since the glands in which pheromones are produced enlarge during periods of reproductive activity, pheromone output is probably greatest at that time. Pheromones are species specific, advertising the receptivity of a female only to the males of their own species. During the breeding season male box turtles seem to easily find prospective mates and may even trail them for long distances so it seems likely that pheromone production is a major player in the mating game."

Kirkie · 18-09-2009, 08:33 PM

I've just reread those tests and I think

a. Maybe they're a bit short sighted!

b. If in the test where a male and a female were presented the male approached which ever one moved how did the male determine at closer range that the subject was another male turtle. Possibly by scent? I know there are colouration differences between the sexes but the result of this test seems to show that the sight of another box turtle only warrented further investigation which may have let to the determination of the sex of the other turtle by other means (scent maybe?). I don't think those tests are very conclusive.

Geomyda · 18-09-2009, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirkie

I've just reread those tests and I think

a. Maybe they're a bit short sighted!

b. If in the test where a male and a female were presented the male approached which ever one moved how did the male determine at closer range that the subject was another male turtle. Possibly by scent? I know there are colouration differences between the sexes but the result of this test seems to show that the sight of another box turtle only warrented further investigation which may have let to the determination of the sex of the other turtle by other means (scent maybe?). I don't think those tests are very conclusive.

Not Terrepene, but the Asian group Cuora, you really should read Elmar Meier paper "An approach to the breeding of Aggressive and Stress sensitive Freshwater Turtles" (1997). I have a VHS video which demonstrates the principals and have seen personally on numerous occasions the interactions of male and female Turtles who use both visual and olfactory cues in courtship and successful mating.
I took Romski last weekend to Munster Zoo, and he too witnessed this amazing phenomenon. The attached recent paper perhaps explains the biochemistry which lays behind this:http://www.universityofcalifornia.ed.../article/21359
To my mind, the same is true of many other Freshwater Turtle groups, including American Box Turtles (Terrepene).

**egyptiandan64** · 19-09-2009, 01:20 PM

They sounded pretty conclusive to me

Dave. With a male box turtle encountering another male, He recognises that it's a male by the reaction he gets. Another male will have his head out and be looking to find out also what the turtle coming up to him is. They will look at each other and if no one pulls into their shell (which females usually do) they will start to try to bite each other. If one turtle is more aggressive than the other will retreat into his shell. The aggressor will procede to maul the other turtles marginal scutes around the front of the shell.

Danny

Geomyda · 28-09-2009, 08:56 PM

Whilst in Germany a couple of weeks ago, I purchased the new book by Carl J Franklin, and David A Killpack. Having now read it, I can say it is a brilliant text, which brings right up to date ideas and where relevant, technology involving this Genus of highly enigmatic Turtles.

The book, has a forward written by that other famous Box Turtle specialist C.Kenneth Dodd Jnr, whose earlier book North American Box Turtles-a Natural History.
For anyone who has been charmed by this group of Turtles I thoroughly recommend buying The Complete North American Box Turtle book, or at least make sure that friends and family know that it is on your Christmas list!
Published by Eco press with an ISBN 978-0-9788979-8-7
My only criticism is that it has a special feature "Gate fold" section, which opens out to display beautifully illustrated coloured drawings of each of the species, and an accompanying range Map. -(the sort of printed section often used by National Geographic magazine). Whilst beautifully produced and printed, this section is quite delicate, and can be easily damaged if a casual reader is not familiar with the careful folded section.
With this book, and also the recently revised edition of Turtles of the United States and Canada, by Ernst and Lovich. Christmas 2009 for the Turtle ANORAKS, is going to be quite memorable.

Kirkie · 28-09-2009, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geomyda

My only criticism is that it has a special feature "Gate fold" section, which opens out to display beautifully illustrated coloured drawings of each of the species, and an accompanying range Map. -(the sort of printed section often used by National Geographic magazine). Whilst beautifully produced and printed, this section is quite delicate, and can be easily damaged if a casual reader is not familiar with the careful folded section.

I give mine a week when it arrives. I have fists of ham.

17-09-2009, 10:59 PM	#21
romski Member Incubating Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Somerset Posts: 216	Tail cleaning We saw similar behaviour in Hamm this week end. The female did the same thing just prior to mating. Its as if she was making sure she was clean back there before her man came along.

17-09-2009, 11:03 PM	#22
egyptiandan64 Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 14,171	Actually when a female does that in the presence of a male she is telling the male she is ready to mate. I've seen quite a few of my females do that. I've even had a Black breasted leaf turtle female do it. I call it the "come get me big boy" dance. I have seen papers saying the exact opposite with box turtles Paul. It was in Copeia, I do believe, and they were trying to tell if a male box turtle could smell a female or needed to see her. From their tests a male box turtle needs to see a female to breed with her. So they must not run into the opposite sex that often in the wild. I'm sure thats why females have the capacity to store sperm for many years as the chances of running into a male every year are slim. Danny __________________ Last edited by egyptiandan64; 17-09-2009 at 11:10 PM.

17-09-2009, 11:16 PM	#23
Star Senior Member Sub Adult Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: With My Tortoises Posts: 1,495	A very interesting subject....sorry I cant offer any valuable advice. __________________ 1.1./. Amazing kids 0.1./. Gorgeous Malamute 0.1./. Beautiful Cat 0.5.0. Playful T.H.H / T.H.B 11 Tropical Fish 1 Bearded Lizard Lots of Aspirin Before enlightenment - chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment - chop wood, carry water. ~Zen Buddhist Proverb

17-09-2009, 11:24 PM	#24
Kirkie Senior Member Adult Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,887	I think I read that article Dan. Didn't they do things like use a moving wooden replica and a box turtle skeleton to gauge the males reaction? Probably a bit more in depth than that but those are the bits I remember. Anyhoo, It seems odd that scent wouldn't play a part, the box turtle in question gauges everything by having a good long sniff of it first. Another indearing habit If anyone wants to lend me a male to test all this out.....I would love to witness the "come and get me big boy" box turtle dance for myself. Last edited by Kirkie; 17-09-2009 at 11:26 PM.

18-09-2009, 07:18 PM	#25
Kirkie Senior Member Adult Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,887	Is this the one? Referenced on pages 3 & 4 http://www.gctts.org/BTPT/Box_Turt_i...Cons_Jul04.pdf On the other hand... Box Turtles by Patricia Pope Bartlett, Page 34. "It is known that most reptiles produce pheromones, scented hormones relating to reproduction. Since the glands in which pheromones are produced enlarge during periods of reproductive activity, pheromone output is probably greatest at that time. Pheromones are species specific, advertising the receptivity of a female only to the males of their own species. During the breeding season male box turtles seem to easily find prospective mates and may even trail them for long distances so it seems likely that pheromone production is a major player in the mating game." Last edited by Kirkie; 18-09-2009 at 07:25 PM.

18-09-2009, 08:33 PM	#26
Kirkie Senior Member Adult Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,887	I've just reread those tests and I think a. Maybe they're a bit short sighted! b. If in the test where a male and a female were presented the male approached which ever one moved how did the male determine at closer range that the subject was another male turtle. Possibly by scent? I know there are colouration differences between the sexes but the result of this test seems to show that the sight of another box turtle only warrented further investigation which may have let to the determination of the sex of the other turtle by other means (scent maybe?). I don't think those tests are very conclusive.

19-09-2009, 01:20 PM	#28
egyptiandan64 Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 14,171	They sounded pretty conclusive to me Dave. With a male box turtle encountering another male, He recognises that it's a male by the reaction he gets. Another male will have his head out and be looking to find out also what the turtle coming up to him is. They will look at each other and if no one pulls into their shell (which females usually do) they will start to try to bite each other. If one turtle is more aggressive than the other will retreat into his shell. The aggressor will procede to maul the other turtles marginal scutes around the front of the shell. Danny __________________

28-09-2009, 08:56 PM	#29
Geomyda Senior Member Adult Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Surrey Posts: 2,094	The Complete North American Box Turtle Whilst in Germany a couple of weeks ago, I purchased the new book by Carl J Franklin, and David A Killpack. Having now read it, I can say it is a brilliant text, which brings right up to date ideas and where relevant, technology involving this Genus of highly enigmatic Turtles. The book, has a forward written by that other famous Box Turtle specialist C.Kenneth Dodd Jnr, whose earlier book North American Box Turtles-a Natural History. For anyone who has been charmed by this group of Turtles I thoroughly recommend buying The Complete North American Box Turtle book, or at least make sure that friends and family know that it is on your Christmas list! Published by Eco press with an ISBN 978-0-9788979-8-7 My only criticism is that it has a special feature "Gate fold" section, which opens out to display beautifully illustrated coloured drawings of each of the species, and an accompanying range Map. -(the sort of printed section often used by National Geographic magazine). Whilst beautifully produced and printed, this section is quite delicate, and can be easily damaged if a casual reader is not familiar with the careful folded section. With this book, and also the recently revised edition of Turtles of the United States and Canada, by Ernst and Lovich. Christmas 2009 for the Turtle ANORAKS, is going to be quite memorable.

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