Chelonian Meeting Kent 28-2-2010?

[Kirkie]

The fate of the adult females used in the horsfield ranching operations is usually the far eastern food industry. Chris Newmans words, not mine.

I understand a commercial operation, I understand that consumers would rather not know where "produce" comes from. I'm a tortoise keeper, the attendees of the meeting are, on the whole, tortoise keepers. The explanation given to us for the design of the irrigation system wasn't that it was a well thought out design that minimised the risk of contamination, we were told that tortoises don't drink standing water.

[Kirkie]

You know what else occured to me today? This farm and others like it are slowing killing themselves. How many other farming concerns supply the consumer with the means to perpetuate self production of the product indefinetly without returning to the supplier. Most farmers have the foresite to kill their product, we can breed theirs. In 10 years time we could have enough small scale breeders in Europe to cover demand.

Viva la cartel!

[EJ]

I highly doubt that... unless they are very large nonproducing animals.

That was worded wrong... they do not seek out standing water as a rule. They seek out water period. In the case of a wholesaler they get in new tortoises relatively regularly. This is like you getting a new tortoise.... does it immediately find the waterbowl?... does it normally drink out of a waterbowl?... normally... no... they do not drink out of a waterbowl... just scroll through the hundreds of posts stating 'help, my tortoise is not drinking out of the waterbowl'. Tortoises, normally, do not drink standing water because for most tortoises they come from habitats where there is no standing water.

(I gotta get to work)

Originally Posted by Kirkie

The fate of the adult females used in the horsfield ranching operations is usually the far eastern food industry. Chris Newmans words, not mine.

I understand a commercial operation, I understand that consumers would rather not know where "produce" comes from. I'm a tortoise keeper, the attendees of the meeting are, on the whole, tortoise keepers. The explanation given to us for the design of the irrigation system wasn't that it was a well thought out design that minimised the risk of contamination, we were told that tortoises don't drink standing water.

[Kirkie]

I agree, it doesn't sound like a viable long term commercial prospect more like a slash and burn operation with ever diminishing returns.

I also agee on point two. Rainfall is a drinking stimulus but they damn sure dont catch it out of the air.

I gotta go too, west ham are on the telly.

[Kirkie]

These are the notes I made, apologies to Chris Newman for any discrepencies or anything I did not note down.

I've left out the rude drawing Bindi made on page 3 of my notes.



Chris visited the farm situated outside Ljubljana, Slovenia in 2009.

The farm covers approx 4 hectares of land. The tortoise pens consist of 12 areas of 300x100 metres. The substrate of the pens appeared to have a good covering of feeder plants with ploughed areas of bear earth set aside for the deposition of eggs.

The farms main breeding stock is Testudo Hermanni Boettgeri and consists of approx 8000 animals of breeding age (male to female ratio
unrecorded).

T.H Boettgeri is currently the only
species of tortoise being commercially produced by the farm. Breeding groups of Horsfield tortoises and some species of aquatic turtle are also kept onsite in covered buildings.

Staff are on hand to monitor the tortoises and to mark nesting sites. Eggs are removed
to incubators. The peak of production say 15-17,000 eggs incubated per annum, current production is the incubation of 5-6,000 eggs per annum. Incubation numbers are based on orders placed.

Chris voiced some concerns over the
conditions that hatchling tortoises are transferred to. These consist of 1.5x2 metre “drums”.
Mention was made of the substrate used, afraid I missed it. I think it was something to do with poultry.

The hatchlings are given time outside if conditions are favourable.

Adults are maintained outdoors year round, loss of adult animals during outdoor
hibernation is less than 1% per annum.

Hatchlings are often exported one month after hatching.

Leading onto…

UK Trade

We were shown pictures of a UK based facility which grows on imported hatchling tortoises. This establishment deals with a farm in Macedonia, in fact Chris reported that virtually no
Slovenian farmed Hermann’s tortoises were imported into the UK last year, down from a peak of some 7,000 specimens per annum.

The hatchlings are dispatched to the UK via air freight, a flight time of two hours. Tortoises are boxed in a container of 12 compartments with four tortoises per compartment. Mortality rate in transit is less than 0.1%, virtually nil.

The UK facility consists of 7 x 1000 tortoise holding rooms each independent in terms of environmental measures. All have lighting and UV facilities. Tortoises are kept in plastic tubs; measuring approx 30 inches, the box shown contained 8 tortoises (I think). The tortoises are kept on wood shavings. No standing water is available in the tubs. Water is supplied twice daily via a spray system. Diet consists of Mazuri leaf eater diet (I believe this is Nutrazu Leaf Eater diet in the EU) with boiled plum tomatoes also provided (requires confirmation).

The objective of the facility is to raise tortoises to an SCL of 6cm’s. Tortoises may remain at the facility for up to a year before onward shipping to wholesalers/retailers. They are shipped out in boxes containing 8 tortoises.

[EJ]

Far from it. The operation was 25 years in the making. They sell tortoises that are head started but have at least 10 years to reach maturity. I have not seen that kind of commitment in the conservation sector in terms of chelonians. With the above numbers mentioned I can see the farms making money in years to come considering the backbiting and politics that commonly occurs in tortoise groups that care.

The water is taken off of droplets on the sides (leaves) and the ever famous runoff from their shells.

Originally Posted by Kirkie

I agree, it doesn't sound like a viable long term commercial prospect more like a slash and burn operation with ever diminishing returns.

I also agee on point two. Rainfall is a drinking stimulus but they damn sure dont catch it out of the air.

I gotta go too, west ham are on the telly.

[Kirkie]

I'd read the same of ranching. Release of the females plus a proportion of hatchlings. Chris' statement was a suprise to me.*Its a sad but true fact that the far east is an option for the farms if the backside falls out of the pet trade.

I agree once again that bitchin is always going to hold back any attempt to have a structured programme within the UK. Something was in the offing in the North East a while back I dont know what became of it.

My cartel will be different. I've learned today you need a good front man. I'm trying to think of a name. I was thinking south london urban tortoise society just for the acyronym.

[joekent]

Originally Posted by Kirkie

You know what else occured to me today? This farm and others like it are slowing killing themselves. How many other farming concerns supply the consumer with the means to perpetuate self production of the product indefinetly without returning to the supplier. Most farmers have the foresite to kill their product, we can breed theirs. In 10 years time we could have enough small scale breeders in Europe to cover demand.

Viva la cartel!

Very interesting to read your notes Kirkie as unfortunately I wasnt able to attend.

What you mentioned above has always interested me so I spoke to a manager at a chain of pet shops who sells imported horsfields and he said that in his experience over 90% of them turn out to be males.. I don't know if the tortoise farms deliberately incubate for males so as to keep future trading viable? I am sure there has been no official study done but male 'pet shop' horsfields do seem far more common than females. Just a thought!

[Kirkie]

Hi Joe,

It's a very good point and I raised a similar thread way back concerning male T.Hermanni Hercegovinensis(the lack of). If it hasn't been considered before (and this is probably alerting everyone to the possibility ) then a huge insurance policy for these businesses to continue to prosper has been overlooked by not practising temperature dependent sexing during incubation.

I'd encourage amateur breeders to ensure that a percentage of males are incubated; females are more coveted but a future population of males is essential.

[Alan1]

Originally Posted by EJ

Most normal people would have read it as the obvious... as you did.

I am not normal but.

I did think it was most likely this year with an outside chance that you were trying to find an old write up from last year