Totally Stumped!!

[HermanniChris23]

Well as it turns out I think one of my T. graeca iberas may be a T. graeca graeca. It was sold to me as an Ibera along with 2 other females who are 100% full bred Iberas, but now after some time I am beginning to think otherwise and I need help.

If this were any subspecies of Hermanns it would be a piece of cake for me, but this time I need help!

Ok so the animal on the left in each pic is what I am confused about. I am comparing him to a male Ibera in each of the pics. He is 6 and 5/8" and the Ibera is 7 and 1/2". He has lived w/ Iberas for quite some time now, is very agressive and has even hibernated! Still I think he may not be an Ibera...he just looks different. He is very large too and all the Graeca I have kept in the past have remained smaller than this guy, especially males. He has big eyes like an Ibera but the carapace and certain scutes resemble a graeca graeca. Let me know what you guys think!!
-Chris

[piglet]

Hi Chris the tortoise looks TGG for deffinate I agree.

I would think he is of Algerian origin locality Oran.

Here are my Oran animals

Darren

[egyptiandan64]

I'm going to have to say ibera for sure Chris What makes me think that is the plastron. If you notice on Darrens T.g.g. the seam between the abdominal scutes and the femoral scutes is slightly dipped with a sharp drop towards the bridges. That's a classic T.g.g. trait. Your male has a very straight line, even straighter then your known ibera male. That is a trait of T. ibera. The first vertebral scute is very straight sided on your male, which is another T. ibera trait. He I'm sure came from a different region then your other male T. ibera, possibly from western Turkey.
Your male looks like this female that Andy Highfield ID'd as an ibera http://forums.shelledwarriors.co.uk/...pic.php?t=3331 they are probably from the same area.

Dan

[HermanniChris23]

Thanks Darren, thanks Dan

I'm not really sure what to go with. Here is the thing: George Ullmann down in Arcadia Florida (Dan I think you know him) collected these animals himself 25 years ago. He had a big group of them and when I purchased a few this is one of the males I got. He doesn't look like the females but like I said he has lived with them, has reproduced and has hibernated in very cold temperatures....I also wonder if he's a hybrid....what boggles my mind is that if George collected these then he must be Ibera....

He does look like Darren's animals but he also definitely looks like an Ibera for sure

I have been colling him now for just under 6 weeks and he is about to go into hibernation...this is my first hibernation with him...do you guys think I should hold off, or just go for it??

-Chris

[egyptiandan64]

Yes I know George and if he collected it it is an ibera no two ways about it

Dan

[piglet]

Totally diagree These are both of North African origin TGG

Darren

[HermanniChris23]

Darren, are you saying that both my animals are TGG? I know the one of the right is a 100% pure bred Ibera, I've seen its parents and have seen its offspring, definite Ibera. As for the other, I am still a bit puzzled. This tortoise has hibernated at near freezing temperatures for the last few years of its life without any problems.

[piglet]

Hi Chris
The animal on the left is tgg no way is that ibera , all my tgg hibernate except the southern morocans and Tuisians .

The longer animal looks Ibera but i'm not 100% convinced perhaps as it shows characteristics of tgg/libyan perhaps a hybrid if captive reared .

Darren

[HermanniChris23]

Well I have been speaking to Andy Highfield through e-mail all day and so far the outcome is this:

The animal on the left is in no way Algerian, it is not from Oran. It may be from Lebanon or from an area that has been uncollected in Libya, it may also be a hybrid / Ibera.

The animal on the right is being voted as an ibera but with the possibility of it being a hybrid as well.

I'll keep you all updated.

[piglet]

Hi Chris
I also took the liberty to ask Andys advise, I too had the same answer more or less this morning I was going to pm you the answer but as you already have it no point, but what I was saying in my post about the Oran animals is you tortoise on the left resembled my tgg Oran type rather than anything ibera in type my point being they aren't Ibera.

Darren