What could happen if the tortoises weren't hibernated?

[Pussygalore]

In order to prevent my adult TGIs from hibernating ( if I could ) I would have to bring them in at the end of August because although it was still warm in september they stopped eating and slowed themselves down they have done so for years, however my youngsters ( 2 yr hermans ) did not do either and I did have to bring them inside in order for the slow down period it would have been relatively easy to have kept them up whether they are to young for their instincts to kick in I don't know, but I think that because we feed them far richer readily available foods all the year round than they would ever find in the wild that eventually without a break of some kind that harm would be done, in the wild their available food varies because of the rainfall or lack of it so they must have periods of very slim pickings as well as those of good plant growth whether they hibernate naturally or not, we have niether these hot dry spells or the variation in their diet so surely we have to compensate for this, if we didn't hibernate or give them this rest wouldn't the alternative if we wanted to keep them awake be to have varying periods of no food or just very dry poor foods to imitate what nature would give them in the wild,

[gtm]

Chelonians have been around for about 70 million years more or less (the 1st one was a primative sea turtle) - the basic design has'nt changed (because its a pretty good one - a bit like sharks) that much since then although there have been adaptations etc over the millenia. I don't know whether the archaic chelonia hibernated (no one else does either!).

A blunt answer to the original post is that if your tortoise misses a hibernation then the net effects are going to be minimal. If you never hibernate - I simply don't know. Ed's view is that hibernation in tortoises is simply a function of their reptile nature - ie reduced heat - reduced activity & that it not a true hibernation like bears or squirrels. On the other hand many say that it is a natural part of their life cycle and that captive tortoises should be hibernated. It's a tricky one and when is all said and done we individually have to decide what we think is best for our own animals.

[marmite]

In a recent post people have been saying that 8 weeks is better than 6 for a hibernation. Why are the opinions so strong if there is no scientific proof of health benefits?

[swad1000]

Originally Posted by EJ

I gave 3 examples where both normally hibernating species do not hibernate and non hibernating species do hibernate to illustrate my point.

Also there are many tortoise keepers who can testify that they've never hibernated tortoises they keep which hibernate in the wild.

You can do more harm in recommending hibernating than not hibernating. All you have to do is read through all the posts on this very list that deal with the topic...

'My tortoise is sick so I'm not going to hibernate it this year... Help, my tortoise won't go down for it's winter nap... I had to pull my tortoise out of hibernation early... ' Come March or April, count the posts on all the lists which start 'I'm so devistated my tortoise died in hibernation...'

Now, Check out the posts where 'help, I decided not to hibernate my tortoise and it's doing great... what should I do?'

The choice to hibernate is your choice and not the tortoises. If it had a choice in the wild, it would not hibernate as proven by the previous populations listed.

My personal studies on this are about as extensive and complete as anyones. It's my opinion which is just as valid as anyone elses except that I'm showing the reader by the examples given that hibernation is most likely not a necessity and it is an adaptation.

You keyed onto a very important point that I seem to have trouble getting across... Tortoises are reptiles and not mammals. They do not truly hibernate as mammals do.

Also, I don't say not to hibernate. I say it is not a necessity...

You made a statement in another post, where you do not like definitive answers, yet in your statement about tortoises hibernating, Yet you have stated " Absolutely nothing happens if you do not hibernate", and a tortoise that does not hibernate " will carry on its merry way with no physical harm", two statements are difinitive, yet you have no evidence to back up these statements, aas no studies have been sufficiently long, or studied a suffieciently large group to back up either claim, what you are stating is your own opinion based on your own toughts.

You site 3 groups of tortoises that do not always follow the accepted norm, so what studies have been carried out on these groups to compare them to the norm with regards to longevity, mortality rates, fertility rates and clutch sizes? I doubt any, so using the to back up your point shows nothing, as those groups that do not hibernate, when others do may have shortened lives, fertility etc. Which we will not know without study.

There is a difference between surving, and thriving. Many animals live on the fringes of the range they can survive on, they do on the whole tend to fair worse than those of the same species that live in more ideal circumstances.

As we as tortoise keepers have already taken the creatures from there ideal surroundings, we should as far as possible try to recreate as an ideal habitat for them as possible.

Not force an unnatural behaviour on them.

[EJ]

Hibernation is practiced and highly recommended by many of the members of this particular list. Those that do recommend hibernation feel quite strongly about it. It would seen that they believe it is a necessity.

I, along with many other tortoise keepers don't believe it is a necessity.

That leaves the decision to the person who actually owns the tortoise in question. Confusing... yes. That are many controversial topics in this hobby but the resources are endless for you to research all sides and determine the course of action you would like to take.

My only position on the subject is that hibernation is not a necessity. I'm not saying not to hibernate and I'm not saying to hibernate. I'm saying that you can do as you see fit.

Originally Posted by marmite

In a recent post people have been saying that 8 weeks is better than 6 for a hibernation. Why are the opinions so strong if there is no scientific proof of health benefits?

[EJ]

You got me dead to rights on that one. What I should have said was that I can't find any evidence to support the claim that not hibernating a species that normally hibernates in the wild effects its health in any way if the tortoise is maintaned under constant favorable conditions. (Does tht work?)

As to my examples... you need to use a little common sense. Populations exist and thrive for all of those species on both ends of their range. It would kind of make sense that hibernation is not a necessity or the entire population would hibernate. They are responding to a condition and nothing more.

Now, if you would like to hibernate your tortoise you can but you are not doing it for the benefit of the tortoise unless you are allowing the captive conditions drop to suboptimal conditions.

Originally Posted by swad1000

You made a statement in another post, where you do not like definitive answers, yet in your statement about tortoises hibernating, Yet you have stated " Absolutely nothing happens if you do not hibernate", and a tortoise that does not hibernate " will carry on its merry way with no physical harm", two statements are difinitive, yet you have no evidence to back up these statements, aas no studies have been sufficiently long, or studied a suffieciently large group to back up either claim, what you are stating is your own opinion based on your own toughts.

You site 3 groups of tortoises that do not always follow the accepted norm, so what studies have been carried out on these groups to compare them to the norm with regards to longevity, mortality rates, fertility rates and clutch sizes? I doubt any, so using the to back up your point shows nothing, as those groups that do not hibernate, when others do may have shortened lives, fertility etc. Which we will not know without study.

There is a difference between surving, and thriving. Many animals live on the fringes of the range they can survive on, they do on the whole tend to fair worse than those of the same species that live in more ideal circumstances.

As we as tortoise keepers have already taken the creatures from there ideal surroundings, we should as far as possible try to recreate as an ideal habitat for them as possible.

Not force an unnatural behaviour on them.

[swad1000]

Originally Posted by EJ

You got me dead to rights on that one. What I should have said was that I can't find any evidence to support the claim that not hibernating a species that normally hibernates in the wild effects its health in any way if the tortoise is maintaned under constant favorable conditions. (Does tht work?)

As to my examples... you need to use a little common sense. Populations exist and thrive for all of those species on both ends of their range. It would kind of make sense that hibernation is not a necessity or the entire population would hibernate. They are responding to a condition and nothing more.

Now, if you would like to hibernate your tortoise you can but you are not doing it for the benefit of the tortoise unless you are allowing the captive conditions drop to suboptimal conditions.

No I'm hibernating my tortoise to mantain as far as possible a natural life cycle for the animal, by not hibernating them I am forcing onto the animal something that is seen to either have no detrimental effects, or even benefits, whether that is true or not, can not be asscertained as no studies exhist to prove this theory.

But what we do have is fact, that some species of tortoises in the wild do hibernate, something that we as the owners of the pets, should try to recreate, they are not a domesicated animal, and have not been bred to suit our needs.

[EJ]

You really can't use 'because they do it in the wild' as any kind of reason(you can but it doesn't make practical sense) because they don't all hibernate as in the examples given.

You are right that some tortoises will and do hibernate in the wild because they are forced to by environmental conditions... they are not in the wild in this situation we are talking about. They are under our care and I don't see a reason to provide substandard environmental conditions for the reason... 'they do it in the wild'. Looking at the mechanisms as to why they hibernate in the wild leads me to my conclusion.

You're last point is debatable but not on this list.

Well... I think all the bases have been covered.

You say, hibernate.
I say, it is not necessary.

No I'm hibernating my tortoise to mantain as far as possible a natural life cycle for the animal, by not hibernating them I am forcing onto the animal something that is seen to either have no detrimental effects, or even benefits, whether that is true or not, can not be asscertained as no studies exhist to prove this theory.

But what we do have is fact, that some species of tortoises in the wild do hibernate, something that we as the owners of the pets, should try to recreate, they are not a domesicated animal, and have not been bred to suit our needs.

[Ajay]

Originally Posted by swad1000

Its a natural cycle that the tortoises have adapted to over several million years, yet you say not to hibernate is not damaging, exactly how long has your study been conducted over to support this?

Did any of you know that the contraceptive pill was designed by a man - he purposefully left the week gap (where no pills are consumed and bleeding occurs) because he thought that women would go mad if they didn't have their period because they have always done it.. He didn't test it on anyone, just thought that as they always have they always should.

The schools of thought saying that animals which hibernate naturally and then are not allowed to hibernate have shortened lifespans is doing the same thing - they believe this would be the case but have not shown it conclusively - other factors always occur and must be taken into account.

Tortoises are terrestrial ectotherms - freeze intolerant and cold avoiders. Hibernation is a behavioural (and physiological) adaptation to avoid the cold - if there is no cold, the behaviour does not happen. "Excessive growth" when compared to a hibernated tortoise exists because only one tortoise has been eating during that time. Physiologically speaking, tropical tortoises would still be able to hibernate in the wild, should the necessity arise, the same was as med. tortoises could cease hibernating behaviour should the climate make it no longer necessary.

[swad1000]

Originally Posted by EJ

You really can't use 'because they do it in the wild' as any kind of reason(you can but it doesn't make practical sense) because they don't all hibernate as in the examples given.

You are right that some tortoises will and do hibernate in the wild because they are forced to by environmental conditions... they are not in the wild in this situation we are talking about. They are under our care and I don't see a reason to provide substandard environmental conditions for the reason... 'they do it in the wild'. Looking at the mechanisms as to why they hibernate in the wild leads me to my conclusion.

You're last point is debatable but not on this list.

Well... I think all the bases have been covered.

You say, hibernate.
I say, it is not necessary.

I'm not providing substandard enviromental conditions, I'm providing as far as possible NATURAL enviromental conditions, if I lower the temps to mimic those in the wild, and the tortoises chose not to hibernate, then fine.

But I'll let the tortoises decide what is best, by providing as far as possible a natural life cycle, and not force it to follow an unnatural life cycle, as it suits me better.

Your right not all tortoises do hibernate, but they have adapted to that over thousands of years, not a few decades.