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Old 02-08-2013, 02:44 PM   #21
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I cannot comment on Med tortoises, but I know that reds are grown much faster in captivity. In the wild, they grow under an inch a year, in captivity they often grow a lot more than that. While I would not say fast growth is a direct cause of pyramiding, if the other care isn't optimal, the pyramiding will be more severe from what I have observed. One of the places in Mauritius I went to, had two groups of young CB by them Radiateds(I think about 10-15 each), and had set up an experiment to see what effect fast growth had. Both were kept in slightly not perfect conditions on purpose, and the fast grown ones had more pyramiding than the slower grown ones while they were the same size.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:50 PM   #22
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So how bad is the husbandry for a tortoise to get severe pyramiding and MBD? i have seen pictures of shocking severe MBD, it makes me wonder how bad the husbandry actually was to get like that x
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:52 PM   #23
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Quote:
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I agree totally here, in the wild they eat far less than tortoises in captivity. Eating foods as the seasons change. And some months there will be no foods.
This is why tortoises in captivity are always far larger than wild. Also a lot of keepers don't hibernate, so again they are eating foods when in a normal year for wild tortoises they wouldn't eat.
Again nature has taken care to make sure they hatch when there is plenty of food available. By the time the food supply has dwindled they will have gained in size.
Not all over wintered tortoises eat all the time and not the same amount as during the summer. In my experience they slow down to some extent and will not eat on some days. Maybe even wild torts emerge on warmer winter days.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:49 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Catwoman63 View Post
So how bad is the husbandry for a tortoise to get severe pyramiding and MBD? i have seen pictures of shocking severe MBD, it makes me wonder how bad the husbandry actually was to get like that x
There seems to be a reoccurring theme that most of the tortoises for sale with severe MBD have been fed cottage cheese and iceberg lettuce and have been kept on woodchips in a 1ft sq viv on the advice of a vet.
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:03 PM   #25
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I think some of the really bad torts you see are deprived of calcium. To build shell the body needs calcium, without it there is no building block for growth. So those torts you see with tiny shells perched on top of the torts have been starved of the building blocks needed for shell growth. The body of the tort has to grow but the shell isn't able to. The bones are leached of their calcium to try to supply enough for the shell to grow so the bones become soft and deformed. Also the wrong food can, as we know, reduce the ability of the body to use calcium. So if there is a diet of just dandelions the body can't utilise calcium even if there is any available.
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:10 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLINTUS View Post
I cannot comment on Med tortoises, but I know that reds are grown much faster in captivity. In the wild, they grow under an inch a year, in captivity they often grow a lot more than that. While I would not say fast growth is a direct cause of pyramiding, if the other care isn't optimal, the pyramiding will be more severe from what I have observed. One of the places in Mauritius I went to, had two groups of young CB by them Radiateds(I think about 10-15 each), and had set up an experiment to see what effect fast growth had. Both were kept in slightly not perfect conditions on purpose, and the fast grown ones had more pyramiding than the slower grown ones while they were the same size.
Pretty much all that says Ben is that it's better to feed a restricted bad diet than an all you can eat bad diet.

Danny
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:15 PM   #27
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The "grow them slow" phrase has obviously come from looking at wild tortoises. Most wild tortoises are smooth and grow slowly (because it's either too hot or cold to eat or the food isn't nutritious. So if wild tortoises grow smoothly it would make sense to mimic the conditions i.e. restrict food.



Quote:
Originally Posted by pagan queen View Post
I think some of the really bad torts you see are deprived of calcium. To build shell the body needs calcium, without it there is no building block for growth. So those torts you see with tiny shells perched on top of the torts have been starved of the building blocks needed for shell growth. The body of the tort has to grow but the shell isn't able to. The bones are leached of their calcium to try to supply enough for the shell to grow so the bones become soft and deformed. Also the wrong food can, as we know, reduce the ability of the body to use calcium. So if there is a diet of just dandelions the body can't utilise calcium even if there is any available.
You're right Wendy, although you didn't mention vitamin D3, you can supply shed loads of calcium but without D3 it's useless. So either proper supplementation or UV lighting is needed. One without the other is useless.
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:21 PM   #28
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Can't forget the phosphorus either or the calories to get the work of making bones done.

Danny
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:39 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egyptiandan64 View Post
Pretty much all that says Ben is that it's better to feed a restricted bad diet than an all you can eat bad diet.

Danny
The diet in question was very good, it was just the temperatures and humidity were slightly off. As said, comparing the slower grown ones to the faster grown ones when they were at that size, the faster grown ones had more pyramiding. Danny, what do you think of the theory on 'another forum' about humidity literally outweighing everything else in the factor of pyramiding?
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:45 PM   #30
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It doesn't "out weigh" everything, but it is important, especially for hatchlings. In a dry enviroment, hatchlings can actually become dehydrated over-night. When that happans on a consistant basis, the liver and kidneys slowly lose some of their abilty to filter and use what is needed by the body. So it's not the be all and end all, but it is part of the whole that keeps a tortoise growing well.

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