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Old 15-11-2008, 08:45 PM   #11
EJ
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I don't like it either but understand that it most definately is a cultural issue... the people involved are not doing this to be cruel intentionally. This is a part of their culture. This is the way they were raised and learned to accept.

Why I even voice an opinion is because where does the control, that one person trys to take over another, end?

This might be a good cause but the turtles being used are mostly sustainable take animals.

The humanity I wonder about first is the way some people treat others. When everyone comes together to fight a common cause... putting asside their petty differences... that's when I'll support this kind of cause.

The point of the Florida fishing ban was brought up a few times before so I thought I'd look into it a little. It's ironic that I found this article at the top. I first thought that it was going to be biased but was surprised to see that it was some of the best unbiased... actual reporting... I've ever read.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...urtles-florida

It addresses many points on both sides of the discussion.

One other thing... there is not a ban nor are they intending to ban the practice... restrict or control might be a better word.

My interest in this... control... can't stand it. There is one control that might actually help the situation... population. That is the root problem that all of these discussions seem to skirt.

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Originally Posted by anna m View Post
you have to wonder about some people's humanity. You don't have to be an animal lover to realise that this is wrong. It doesn't make sense to say that this is for food purposes. All of this happens in a dirty puddle.
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Last edited by EJ; 15-11-2008 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 15-11-2008, 09:47 PM   #12
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I'd agree with EJ that this is a cultural matter, what I disagree with is Tesco's profit whatever the cost mentality. They are the organisation imposing themselves on another country, they have tapped into a huge international markets on such a scale that they are in the position to control consumer forces. Yet they choose not back out of the turtle market. Why, out of respect for that culture? For not wanting to point the finger and say "thats wrong"? No, to make money.

We find it alarming because we are familiar with the creatures involved and it seems alien to us. If Tesco's were to show some balls and stop this practise it would'nt go away it would just become invisible to us again because a British brand is no longer behind it.

However the globalisation of brands such as Tesco's may in a strange way improve the plight of the turtle. Tesco's are dependant on bulk supplies, they don't concern themselves with local producers (despite their claims) so how long before the "MacDonalds" effect kicks in and everyone in China is eating a westernised diet because Tesco's can ship this in in bulk and sell it dirt cheap.

If you want to discuss Tesco's at a humanitarian level I suggest people look at the fire they are under in Eastern Europe for below minimum wage payments to staff, or South Africa where they are again accused of blatently ripping off farmers financially and accused of allowing farm workers to be exposed to potentially dangerous pesticides in search of the "perfect apple". Or Bangaladesh where they continue to be involved in "sweat shop labour" despite promises to investigate ways of improving working and living standards for those involved in the production of clothing for the Tesco's brand.

Or even to the USA where they are under fire for disregarding union's and accused of all manners of environmental violations.

The Chairman of Tesco's ha gone on record as saying the sale of turtles would be stopped if their was sufficient scientific evidence to show that the practise was having a substantial impact on the wild population. These now seem like hollow words if indeed, the "produce" is farmed
All I can say is sign the petition on Geomyda's post at http://www.shelledwarriors.co.uk/for...ad.php?t=21483
If there's one thing big business don't like is that their customers have an opinion and can think for themselves

Last edited by Kirkie; 15-11-2008 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 15-11-2008, 10:51 PM   #13
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If we put culture to one side for a moment, the Globalisation of a UK retail brand is funded by investment from this country! It is the 20 million UK customers who enable the expansion of this Brand. It's growth in the last Fifty years has depended on a UK shopping consumer, who for the most part is ignorant of the Global expansion it is now embarked upon. The current debate about the Chinese market is centred on the fact that the Asian Turtle trade, is driving an entire group of Vertebrates (Chelonia) towards undoubted extinction. This is not just my opinion, but that of the vast majority of Biologists across the world, who recognise that this is a short journey to oblivion, for a group of animals that have graced our planet for more than 200 million years!
If the "sustainable" farming model is an answer, why is it that only last month, the State of Florida recognised that the over fishing of its wild Softshell turtles, which are being vaccumed up to export to China, should be stopped?
Having studied this subject now for more than a decade, I am 100% convinced that the Turtle farms in Asia, no doubt produce turtles for the table. However, they mask and try to sanitise an unsustainable trade which is the greatest threat to a vertebrate group since the extinction of the Dinosaurs. It is therefore, a travesty that the largest retail business we have in the UK is commited to the continuation of this trade.
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Old 15-11-2008, 11:11 PM   #14
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They are capitalizing on a market... can't blame them for that. If they are doing it illegaly... you can blame them for that. If they are doing it immoraly... weeelllll... that's where you run into the debate. Where is the line drawn for moral or immoral?

If they are selling farmed animals for this market... more power to them. If the discussion turns to how the animals are inhumanely killed... I can't help but find that ironic.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Geomyda View Post
If we put culture to one side for a moment, the Globalisation of a UK retail brand is funded by investment from this country! It is the 20 million UK customers who enable the expansion of this Brand. It's growth in the last Fifty years has depended on a UK shopping consumer, who for the most part is ignorant of the Global expansion it is now embarked upon. The current debate about the Chinese market is centred on the fact that the Asian Turtle trade, is driving an entire group of Vertebrates (Chelonia) towards undoubted extinction. This is not just my opinion, but that of the vast majority of Biologists across the world, who recognise that this is a short journey to oblivion, for a group of animals that have graced our planet for more than 200 million years!
If the "sustainable" farming model is an answer, why is it that only last month, the State of Florida recognised that the over fishing of its wild Softshell turtles, which are being vaccumed up to export to China, should be stopped?
Having studied this subject now for more than a decade, I am 100% convinced that the Turtle farms in Asia, no doubt produce turtles for the table. However, they mask and try to sanitise an unsustainable trade which is the greatest threat to a vertebrate group since the extinction of the Dinosaurs. It is therefore, a travesty that the largest retail business we have in the UK is commited to the continuation of this trade.
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Old 15-11-2008, 11:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ View Post
They are capitalizing on a market... can't blame them for that. If they are doing it illegaly... you can blame them for that. If they are doing it immoraly... weeelllll... that's where you run into the debate. Where is the line drawn for moral or immoral?

If they are selling farmed animals for this market... more power to them. If the discussion turns to how the animals are inhumanely killed... I can't help but find that ironic.
I am sure that the legal issue of their supply chain is covered off, and to their satisfaction, they are trading with legal live animals. However, I once again ask the question, How many of their Shareholders and 20 Million UK customers know that they are engaged in this trade?
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Old 15-11-2008, 11:51 PM   #16
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I can understand your frustration but the fact remains that the UK , our country of animal lovers, are selective about the animals we love. Wait until they start selling dog's meat (which is another culinary regular in china) see the public reaction then, there'd be uproar. Turtles are disadvantaged because they are not "cute" in the eyes of the general public. We're lucky enough to have an appreciation of animals most people don't spare a thought for.

This issue received a lot of media attention when it frist arose but unfortunatley we live in a nation of tutters, "tut! isn't that terrible" and that's it, turn the page.

The majority of the UK public want cheap food, full stop. Tesco provide this. People are prepared to turn a blind eye to where it comes from or what it goes through let alone show concern for (let alone feel the need to protest) the companys activities oversea's.
Look at the recent campaign in regard to free range chickens, the overwhelming argument for factory farmed birds was "they're cheap, I've a family to feed".

The sin's of Tesco are multitude, I'm not making an argument against, I fully support this campaign and I salute you for every effort you make to keep awareness of this issue alive.
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Old 16-11-2008, 09:52 AM   #17
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Thanks!
You know that the the comments made by EJ, in respect of this particular thread might indicate that he did not even look at the Video link?
Whilst the filming was of poor quality, obviously having to be shot in a clandestine manner. It clearly showed an example of a very large Soft shell Turtle- Which is definitely not a Chinese Softshell (Pelodiscus sinensis). Too large!! This is almost certainly a Wild caught specimen, and possibly an import from the USA?
Furthermore, the animals shown being off loaded from the lorry were packed in ice, again, from what we are told by Tesco a practice which they have banned?- I am not suggesting, that this video sequence was from their supply chain, but it highlights very graphically that wild caught animals are mixed up with the Farmed turtles. The trade is full of very dubious and I have no doubt, illegal elements, which is what the recent post from Traffic is demonstrating.
Again, on animal welfare issues, we are told that a humane method of dispatching the turtles, which have "not previously been put on ice", is employed by the Supermarket. They decapitate the live Turtle. Why then, on their own chilled counters, do we see carcasses of Chinese softshell turtles, with head still in situ?
I agree that perhaps we in the UK are guilty of the "Tut, tut" approach to news, but in large part, this subject has not reached the national media for fear that it may impact adversely on advertising revenue from an organisation that that dominates the retail trade?
The Chicken debate earlier this year did try to raise the bar, and it is true that Hugh Fearnley- Whittingstall, failed in his campaign to get the mighty Tesco to fall in line, but no doubt, many other retail organisations are now far more sensitive to this issue, and despite the dreadful economic climate, are seeing a marked increase in ethically sourced Chicken products. What he has done, along with Jamie Oliver has championed change, in a subject that very few people had even thought about a year ago!!
Perhaps, what we need is a media champion for the Turtle trade. Do you know any?
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Old 16-11-2008, 12:24 PM   #18
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You're going under the very bold assumption that the entire country feels as you do. That's probably not the case considering there is not the equivilent outrage that you feel.

There are still many people who like to hunt and fish in the UK. There are still those who like to eat MacDs and KFC.

Many still see turtle as fish and don't seem to make a distinction. Reptiles and Amphibians in the states are still regulated under the heading of fishing rules in most if not all states.

I did look at the video and I've looked at the Bill McCord video (which btw... some of the folks in the UK argued did not exist before that tape was aquired)

Now... packing a chelonian on ice is a humane (if there is such a thing in this instance) way of transport to reduce suffering.

I don't think you are going to chang my mind on the practice and I have no intention of changing yours. I'm only speaking from a different point of view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geomyda View Post
I am sure that the legal issue of their supply chain is covered off, and to their satisfaction, they are trading with legal live animals. However, I once again ask the question, How many of their Shareholders and 20 Million UK customers know that they are engaged in this trade?
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Last edited by EJ; 16-11-2008 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 16-11-2008, 12:38 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geomyda View Post
Perhaps, what we need is a media champion for the Turtle trade. Do you know any?
I wish I did. The only name that springs to mind is the Big Dawg, David Attenborough, but's he kinda tied up with "Year of the Frog" at the moment.
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Old 16-11-2008, 02:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
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I wish I did. The only name that springs to mind is the Big Dawg, David Attenborough, but's he kinda tied up with "Year of the Frog" at the moment.
Nigel Marven, who keeps a herd a Aldabran Tortoises personally might fit the bill?
Does anybody have regular contact with him?
Ed, I might not change your mind, but do you not agree that the Chinese food markets are decimating Chelonian fauna right across the world. Most Biologists, including Bill Mc Cord seem to think so?
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