Mavis & Shellie

shelliemavis · 20-02-2007, 11:12 PM

Here's pictures of Shellie & Mavis's shell and plastron. We know they're Testudo Hermanni but not sure of they're Eastern or Western. I know they're too young but any clues on their sexing would be good! As you'll see Mavis is a lot lighter coloured than Shellie.

Mavis

I think she'd just been walking throught the limestone flour before I took this

Shellie
Shellie has a funny mark on her shell it's where her sticky label was when we got her and it's not all come off yet - any ideas to get it off gratefully received!

Thanks Judith

**Eire_Ade** · 20-02-2007, 11:22 PM

Hi Judith, I think they are both THB as the black underneath is broken unlkie THH.

Here is a link for you to read up yourself. http://forums.shelledwarriors.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=264

They are lovely smooth tortoises, you are doing a great job and far too young to sex yet.

Ade

shelliemavis · 20-02-2007, 11:28 PM

Ade,

Thank you. We've never noticed many of the pale ones like Mavis. Is that more unusual?

Judith

**Eire_Ade** · 20-02-2007, 11:37 PM

Judith, I wouldn't be an expert by no means on identifying tortoises, the more experienced of us here might be able to elabourate further.

I only used the link I sent to you, I only noticed the obvious differences in the carapace, but there are so many variations within recognised subspecies, making many think that there are in fact sub species within these subspecies too, obviously depending on regional locations.

Ade

shelliemavis · 20-02-2007, 11:39 PM

I'm such a novice I just love finding out more about these beautiful little creatures.

Thanks
Judith

niamherrity · 20-02-2007, 11:50 PM

Judith there both lovely

and tiny

Henry-flash · 20-02-2007, 11:57 PM

They are lovely torts you are doing a great job. For Shellies shell you could try scrubbing it lightly with a tooth brush and water.

I would like to see what dan has to say on sub species

**egyptiandan64** · 21-02-2007, 12:30 AM

Hi Judith,
Shellie is T. h. boettgeri

Mavis I'm leaning towards T. h. hercegovinensis. Just one question about Mavis

Does she dig down into the substrate at night to sleep?

Danny

**Eire_Ade** · 21-02-2007, 12:46 AM

Thats great Dan, I knew neither were THH from the ID sticky so thats why I grouped them as THB but I was a bit concearned Mavis the lighter one was not a pure THB because there weren't broken black marking on every plastron plate like on Shellie.

Is TH Hercegovinensis getting recognised as a subspecies for sure or is it like Terrestris and Flowei?

Ade

**egyptiandan64** · 21-02-2007, 01:46 AM

Not sure Ade

Lately everyone is relying on DNA and the DNA says they are the same as boettgeri. I see plenty of differences, in apperence, in habits, eggs and incubation temps they can take. We will have to see

The subspecies was named in 1899 though

Danny

20-02-2007, 11:12 PM	#1
shelliemavis Member Hatched Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: North West Posts: 278	Mavis & Shellie Here's pictures of Shellie & Mavis's shell and plastron. We know they're Testudo Hermanni but not sure of they're Eastern or Western. I know they're too young but any clues on their sexing would be good! As you'll see Mavis is a lot lighter coloured than Shellie. Mavis I think she'd just been walking throught the limestone flour before I took this Shellie Shellie has a funny mark on her shell it's where her sticky label was when we got her and it's not all come off yet - any ideas to get it off gratefully received! Thanks Judith __________________ 0.0.2 Testudo Hermanni Boettgeri - Shellie (Ellie's) & Mavis (mine) hatched 2006 0.2.0 Cavalier King Charles Spaniels - Su age 12 & Emma age 8 1.1.12 Tropical Fish 0.1.0 Daughter - Ellie aka Shelliejunior age 11 1.0.0 Husband

20-02-2007, 11:22 PM	#2
Eire_Ade Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ireland Posts: 8,422	Hi Judith, I think they are both THB as the black underneath is broken unlkie THH. Here is a link for you to read up yourself. http://forums.shelledwarriors.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=264 They are lovely smooth tortoises, you are doing a great job and far too young to sex yet. Ade __________________ Ade ----------------------------------------------- Y.O.B 1971 (40 years young! ) My Tortoises :- Dug (Testudo Graeca Ibera Terrestris (Syrian), Penny, JJ (JennyJack), Buttons and Gem (Testudo Graeca Ibera)

20-02-2007, 11:28 PM	#3
shelliemavis Member Hatched Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: North West Posts: 278	Ade, Thank you. We've never noticed many of the pale ones like Mavis. Is that more unusual? Judith __________________ 0.0.2 Testudo Hermanni Boettgeri - Shellie (Ellie's) & Mavis (mine) hatched 2006 0.2.0 Cavalier King Charles Spaniels - Su age 12 & Emma age 8 1.1.12 Tropical Fish 0.1.0 Daughter - Ellie aka Shelliejunior age 11 1.0.0 Husband

20-02-2007, 11:37 PM	#4
Eire_Ade Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ireland Posts: 8,422	Judith, I wouldn't be an expert by no means on identifying tortoises, the more experienced of us here might be able to elabourate further. I only used the link I sent to you, I only noticed the obvious differences in the carapace, but there are so many variations within recognised subspecies, making many think that there are in fact sub species within these subspecies too, obviously depending on regional locations. Ade __________________ Ade ----------------------------------------------- Y.O.B 1971 (40 years young! ) My Tortoises :- Dug (Testudo Graeca Ibera Terrestris (Syrian), Penny, JJ (JennyJack), Buttons and Gem (Testudo Graeca Ibera)

20-02-2007, 11:39 PM	#5
shelliemavis Member Hatched Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: North West Posts: 278	I'm such a novice I just love finding out more about these beautiful little creatures. Thanks Judith __________________ 0.0.2 Testudo Hermanni Boettgeri - Shellie (Ellie's) & Mavis (mine) hatched 2006 0.2.0 Cavalier King Charles Spaniels - Su age 12 & Emma age 8 1.1.12 Tropical Fish 0.1.0 Daughter - Ellie aka Shelliejunior age 11 1.0.0 Husband

20-02-2007, 11:50 PM	#6
niamherrity Senior Member Adult Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: klidare/ireland Posts: 2,827	Judith there both lovely and tiny

20-02-2007, 11:57 PM	#7
Henry-flash Senior Member Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Cheshire Posts: 9,304	They are lovely torts you are doing a great job. For Shellies shell you could try scrubbing it lightly with a tooth brush and water. I would like to see what dan has to say on sub species __________________ Peter Keeping: Testudo hermanni, Testudo graeca (graeca & ibera ), Testudo horsfieldi, Astrochelys radiata, Malacochersus tornieri and Kinixys belliana. The North West Tortoise Group

21-02-2007, 12:30 AM	#8
egyptiandan64 Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 14,171	Hi Judith, Shellie is T. h. boettgeri Mavis I'm leaning towards T. h. hercegovinensis. Just one question about Mavis Does she dig down into the substrate at night to sleep? Danny __________________

21-02-2007, 12:46 AM	#9
Eire_Ade Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ireland Posts: 8,422	Thats great Dan, I knew neither were THH from the ID sticky so thats why I grouped them as THB but I was a bit concearned Mavis the lighter one was not a pure THB because there weren't broken black marking on every plastron plate like on Shellie. Is TH Hercegovinensis getting recognised as a subspecies for sure or is it like Terrestris and Flowei? Ade __________________ Ade ----------------------------------------------- Y.O.B 1971 (40 years young! ) My Tortoises :- Dug (Testudo Graeca Ibera Terrestris (Syrian), Penny, JJ (JennyJack), Buttons and Gem (Testudo Graeca Ibera)

21-02-2007, 01:46 AM	#10
egyptiandan64 Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 14,171	Not sure Ade Lately everyone is relying on DNA and the DNA says they are the same as boettgeri. I see plenty of differences, in apperence, in habits, eggs and incubation temps they can take. We will have to see The subspecies was named in 1899 though Danny __________________

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