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Old 07-08-2011, 11:06 PM   #11
Watermelon
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Hey Eremiel,

I fell out with my local pet shop too and the tortoise 'expert' in there. Just in the stage of writing my complaint letter however theres lots of pets shops like it. Its kind of upsetting I dont think my letter shall make a difference but I think I'm just going to send it anyway.

The breeder I bought from is banned from the pet shop too. I wrote a thread on tortoise trust if anyone has seen it.

P.s dont leave the forum! Write a letter of advice to the petshop or drop some info in thats what I've been advised to do by people on tortoise trust!
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:40 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Eremiel View Post
I asked the owner were he got hes tortys from and did they have A10 and other paper work. He said he didnt use a "dealer" but took the Tortys from people who didnt want them anymore... so 2nd hand tortys (i can see why mine were ill when i got them now) He also said he "didnt know anything about any paper work?"

What should i do?! Ring the RSPCA again or someone else? Any ideas would be lovely as i cant stop thinking about them and wanna go buy them all
The RSPCA won't do anything and DEFRA won't do anything either unless they are selling torts without A10's. Horsfields and Leopards don't need A10's but I think Pancakes do. People have been jailed for trading without certificates so he'd better watch out
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:43 AM   #13
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Legislation

Article 10 Licence

All Annex A tortoises require an Article 10 licence (A10) before any commercial transaction (sale) can take place. However, there is no requirement for a licence in order to possess an Annex A tortoise, or if you give one away as a gift.
Annexe A Tortoises


Galapagos Giant Tortoise (Geochelone nigra)Radiated tortoise(Geochelone radiata)Angonoka(Geochelone yniphora)Bolson tortoise(Gopherus flavomarginatus)Berger’s cape tortoise(Homopus bergeri)Pancake tortoise(Malacochersus tornieri)Geometric tortoise (Psammobates geometricus)Madagascar flat-shelled tortoise(Pyxis planicauda)Spur-thighed tortoise(Testudo graeca)Madagascar spider tortoise(Pyxis arachnoides)Hermann’s tortoise (Testudo hermanni)Egyptian tortoise(Testudo kleinmanni)Marginated tortoise (Testudo marginata)Negev tortoise(Testudo wernei)
There are two types of Article 10 licences: the “Transaction Specific Certificate” (TSC), and the “Specimen Specific Certificate” (SSC).
1) Transaction Specific Certificate (TSC) for tortoises of 100mm or less.
  • TSCs are generally issued by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) for Annex A, captive-bred tortoises, under 100mm, where the breeding pair is in possession of valid certificates. The TSC is valid for one commercial transaction only and must show the seller/breeder in box 1 of the A10.
  • Any certificate that does not show the seller in box 1 is not valid. Despite popular belief, there is not a requirement for the seller/breeder to hand over the original licence on sale of an Annex A tortoise. A photocopy of the A10 or the certificate number is sufficient. Any purchaser must have sight of the certificate in order to verify all the details are correct.
  • Should the seller/breeder refuse to hand over the original licence, the TPG strongly recommend a potential purchaser should enquire as to why the seller/breeder is not prepared to hand over the original certificate.
  • The TSC becomes invalid for commercial transactions once any tortoise exceeds 100mm. If the tortoise is going to be kept as a pet, then the tortoise does not *have* to be microchipped at this point. The TSC should be kept in a safe place as it may be needed in the future, and if lost a duplicate is not generally issued. If however, a keeper wishes to use the tortoise for commercial purposes i.e. to sell or breed from the tortoise, the tortoise must be ‘marked’ with an unalterable microchip that meets ISO Standards 11784:1996 and 11785:1996 (E) in order that the tortoise can be cross-referenced with the certificate.
  • Microchipping should be carried out by a qualified veterinary practice experienced in this procedure with tortoises.
  • The details of the TSC and the marking (microchip number) should be supplied to DEFRA with a new application (FED 1012) for an SSC.
  • Providing all is in order the new A10 will be issued by DEFRA with the marking recorded on the new A10 (SSC).
  • Applying for a Transaction Specific Certificate (TSC) for UK bred hatchlings.
    Applications for a TSC A10 must be accompanied by the adults’ Certificate & Microchip numbers and an application on form FED 1012.
2) Specimen Specific Certificates (SSC) for tortoises over 100mm.
  1. SSCs are granted for marked (micro-chipped) Annex A tortoises over 100mm. The certificate must remain with the tortoise during its lifetime and must display the tortoise’s microchip number. Any commercial transaction involving an Annex A tortoise over 100mm in length must be accompanied by the original SSC.
  2. Applying for a Specimen Specific Certificate (SSC)

    For tortoises already issued with a Transaction Specific Certificate

    Once a tortoise reaches 100mm in length it is deemed necessary to arrange for the tortoise to be microchipped and to apply for a SSC if the tortoise is to be used for commercial purposes. Applications should be made on form FED1012 and should include the microchip No. and the TSC No. If you have the original TSC, this should be returned with your application.
For Tortoises captive bred in the UK – without supporting documentary evidence.

If a tortoise is captive bred in the UK, and there is no documentation to reinforce that the tortoise is captive bred, there is little chance of obtaining a full Specimen Specific Certificate. Applications should be made in writing to DEFRA with an application form FED1012. Each case is treated separately and considered on its own merits. Usually, the best result one can hope for is a Breeder’s Certificate. This can either be issued as a TSC or a SSC, dependent on whether the tortoise is over 100mm in length and microchipped. This will permit the tortoise to be bred and can be used to apply for TSCs for any hatchlings. It will not permit the sale of the tortoise.
For Tortoises imported into the UK pre-1984.

Again, each application is treated separately and considered on its own merits. Applications should be made on form FED1012. As much detail should be supplied as possible:
i) A letter of gifting from the last keeper giving details of how they obtained the tortoise and the date they passed the tortoise onto you.
ii) Any relationship to the last keeper/how you came to know the previous keeper and came by the tortoise.
iii) Details of previous keepers, with covering letters from them if possible.
iv) Details of when and where the tortoise was originally obtained.
v) Details of the tortoise’s microchip number.
iv) Should an application fail to produce a full SSC, DEFRA may consider issuing a breeders certificate in the form of an Article 10, which will be sufficient to be used to register any hatchlings for a TSC. This will not permit the sale of the tortoise.
3) Breeder’s Certificate

A Breeder’s Certificate can be in two forms, either as a TSC or a SSC. The breeder’s certificate is issued by DEFRA when there is inconclusive evidence as to whether a tortoise is captive bred. The breeder’s certificate will permit the holder to breed from the tortoise and apply for licences for any offspring, but does not authorise the sale of the tortoise
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:49 AM   #14
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like I said the council have inspectors which can revoke a shops lisence if they are'nt meeting the animal care guide lines however anyone complaining has to be precise and accurate about where the shop is going wrong. The council are only that and aren't animal experts just know what should be required, they will however visit and do follow up visits to see conditions are met. As Alan said Defra are the ones to check on paperwork or lack off, however if you wish something to be done don't have a go at the shop all that will do is warn them of a possible visit from the authority and possibly get rid of any evidence as such. To make shop/sellers improve their conditions and paperwork etc they need to be caught red handed, at least I think so. Make notes etc before you phone the authorities then you know exactly what to say.
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:20 AM   #15
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like I said the council have inspectors which can revoke a shops lisence if they are'nt meeting the animal care guide lines however anyone complaining has to be precise and accurate about where the shop is going wrong. The council are only that and aren't animal experts just know what should be required, they will however visit and do follow up visits to see conditions are met. As Alan said Defra are the ones to check on paperwork or lack off, however if you wish something to be done don't have a go at the shop all that will do is warn them of a possible visit from the authority and possibly get rid of any evidence as such. To make shop/sellers improve their conditions and paperwork etc they need to be caught red handed, at least I think so. Make notes etc before you phone the authorities then you know exactly what to say.
I think thats great advice right there, Ann. And probably the best and only way to go about this situation.
Sadly...I agree - there are many shops out there that are very bad. There are some good ones by the same token. But it is sad when I read what Chaz said earlier...in her first post.
Chaz - Keep your cool, sleep on things and if need be - take a step back from the forum if it gets difficult. At the end of the day, we all are gonna have our differences, little rows. You need to distance yourself from this if it starts to lean that way.
It is what it is here. And all we are doing is typing text - not face to face. Things can get misunderstood very easily.
But try not to get embroiled, take a breather and look at things fresh. xx
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Old 08-08-2011, 04:25 PM   #16
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Is it the petshop in oldtown? Or chanely?
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Old 08-08-2011, 06:23 PM   #17
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Is it the petshop in oldtown? Or chanely?
Old Town are great guys they even run Torty workshops to help owners know their pets its the one in Cheney Manor.
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Old 08-08-2011, 06:32 PM   #18
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Ah thought it might be. I have been in there a couple of times. Was not very impressed but I think most pet shops are the same. What I don't understand is they have them runs outside on show but never seem to put them out to have free time. But that's just me.
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Old 08-08-2011, 06:55 PM   #19
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Ah thought it might be. I have been in there a couple of times. Was not very impressed but I think most pet shops are the same.
I agree, lots of pet shops are the same, but if more people took action like Eremiel it could gradually make a difference. Go girl!!
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:40 PM   #20
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The only things that will change the care or selling of any animal in pet shops, is if it was profitable for them to change it. Also if people didn't buy animals from them then they wouldn't sell them.... Most people I believe don't really care that much about the state of animals in crowded cages.... when they see the animals in a cage they just think it looks cute.... You only have to see the tiny hamster cages and micro rabbit hutches that are for sale.... They are like minature prisons.... It makes me mad.... If enough people cared, people would refuse to buy the tiny cages, and pet shops would be forced to make changes to bigger and better accommodation! Sadly this won't happen will it.... So my point is if lots of people are happy for their pets to live their miserable lives in tiny homes then not much will get done about the temporary accomodation of the tortoises you are talking about .... I totally agree it is wrong though.......
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