Pre Alpin Testudo

[egyptiandan64]

The fiber is nice, but to me that is way to much undigested fiber (I'm sure most of that is the grass content of the product). That to me just fills a tortoise up and makes it want to eat more to get the calories it needs.
In the wild not all Hermanns come from areas that get that dry in the summer. Dalmation Hermanns come from countries that get quite a bit of rain through the year (averaging 1,200 to 1,300mm a year). Tortoises that do get a dry summer didn't ask for a dry summer, it just happens to them where they live. They stock up on food in the spring and hopefully they get enough to survive the meager rations during a dry summer. I can imagine not all tortoises make it through a really dry summer and if they didn't get enough to eat not make it through hibernation. They (females) also won't be laying eggs every year as it takes to long to get up enough fat reserves to use on eggs every year. They would be laying eggs either every other year or every third year.
In captivity feeding a better diet through out the year, makes sure that your tortoise makes it through hibernation (if you hibernate) and that females have enough fat reserves to want to lay every year. I don't see how this is bad for a tortoise.
The tortoise in the wild didn't ask for everything to dry out, but tries to survive the best it can with what it's given. This is why wild tortoises don't live very long (30 to 35 years on average). I'm not really sure we want to replicate everything that happens to a tortoise in the wild.

Just my 2 pence

Danny

[Kirkie]

Dan,*

Your two pence worth is always appreciated. As usual, its only a variation on " the wild". *My Hermanns * * *have a head start in that I prefer a shorter hibernation which allows me to feed them up on green feeds prior to me releasing them outdoors for the summer. There they had free range on plants in addition to the pre alpin this year. I imagine the plant die back in nature is more severe than I can recreate, the tortoises always have food available regardless of its green/dry state. The carbohydrate and protein levels remain locked in the plant when dry so are still a source of energy. Same goes for summer into Autumn, I did move them back onto more fresh food. Weight gain was pretty much as expected in previous years and the winddown into hibernation saw limited weight loss so the gain was genuine growth not retain pre alpin.
The bottom picture I posted came from a 1.7 kilo Boettgeri, as you can imagine this tortoise can tuck away a *lot of food daily and I'm wondering if the net resulting expulsion from the gross amount of food eaten isnt much of a concern? Does that little food exiting partly digested means the body is working to extract maximum nutrition from the rest to the extent that very little makes it through (nasty personal experience here, when Im doing a lot of 10k training and not upping my calorie intake, you can wait for days.... ).

I need to get some time behind this idea *but I don't think its an undue drain on them considering their summer activity this year ( minimal hours per day, it was hot here) and the switch to greener feeds at either end of the season (very natural ).

The egglaying is an interesting I had a Hercegovenensis lay*this year but that was almost straight out of hibernation, pre pre alpin as it were. Ill see what happens with her in the spring.


I think the dried products have genuine uses, winter feeding being one, I'm probsbly just using them wrong but I enjoy mzking my mistakes in public.

[egyptiandan64]

I don't have a problem with dried foods, just with what seems to be a high grass content of the pre alpin. Few tortoises are geared to eating and digesting grass and even fewer dried grass. I know Testudo eat grass, some of mine do. They though seem to get more out of it when it is fresh compared to when it's dry.
I can see using this as a supplement during the winter to add fiber to the diet which will be lacking it with supermarket greens.
I'd just like to see more digested food (the brown around the fiber) and a bit less fiber in the turd than I'm seeing.
To me it just looks like your paying for dried grass and not much else.
Dave, do they list the ingredients on the bag? On the website it just lists whats generally in the stuff.

Danny

[Alan1]

Originally Posted by egyptiandan64

I don't have a problem with dried foods, just with what seems to be a high grass content of the pre alpin. Few tortoises are geared to eating and digesting grass and even fewer dried grass. I know Testudo eat grass, some of mine do. They though seem to get more out of it when it is fresh compared to when it's dry.

I've just recently been reading about that Dan and what it said was that in Feb, March, April and May they feed "mainly on flowers and juicy fresh greens loaded with vitamins".

It said June, July and August, they are not very active at all and with the plants drying up, resort to seeds berries and fruits - "these wild-growing fruits and berries are, however, not at all comparable to the sweet and watery fruits and berries meant for human consumption".

In another article, I read about the Croatian torts feeding on farmers' crops and getting battered to death for their troubles.

From what I gather, even the same breed of torts in the same country can have very different lives. The ones by the coast may even bury themselves for a couple of months in July and August apparently whereas the the ones on higher ground hibernate much longer.

I have yet to discover what a wild tort's diet actually really is, there are so many variations. I've come to the conclusion that there isn't one particular diet for one particular breed of tort and it's down to where they live, varying wildly even within a few miles

[justmeandmytortoise]

Great thread guys ... who fancies doing this as a presentation at one of our meetings

[NATURALIS]

Originally Posted by egyptiandan64

The fiber is nice, but to me that is way to much undigested fiber (I'm sure most of that is the grass content of the product). That to me just fills a tortoise up and makes it want to eat more to get the calories it needs.
In the wild not all Hermanns come from areas that get that dry in the summer. Dalmation Hermanns come from countries that get quite a bit of rain through the year (averaging 1,200 to 1,300mm a year). Tortoises that do get a dry summer didn't ask for a dry summer, it just happens to them where they live. They stock up on food in the spring and hopefully they get enough to survive the meager rations during a dry summer. I can imagine not all tortoises make it through a really dry summer and if they didn't get enough to eat not make it through hibernation. They (females) also won't be laying eggs every year as it takes to long to get up enough fat reserves to use on eggs every year. They would be laying eggs either every other year or every third year.
In captivity feeding a better diet through out the year, makes sure that your tortoise makes it through hibernation (if you hibernate) and that females have enough fat reserves to want to lay every year. I don't see how this is bad for a tortoise.
The tortoise in the wild didn't ask for everything to dry out, but tries to survive the best it can with what it's given. This is why wild tortoises don't live very long (30 to 35 years on average). I'm not really sure we want to replicate everything that happens to a tortoise in the wild.

Just my 2 pence

Danny

You mention in the wild a 30 to 35 year live span , is this due to food or is there other factors , like lose of habitat ,farming methods, people, change of land use, live stock,motorways,crop dusting, housing develpments,collecting tortoise's from the wild , etc involved in setting this age !

[Kirkie]

Hi Dan,

I see your point about the grass content and understand that my hermanns are not naturally big grass grazers. The silica content would affect the digestability but would the fact that this is chopped mean some nutritional extraction was possible perhaps? The tough outer layer has be broken.
As you've summerised the pre alpins uses is pretty much how the manufacturer markets it, as a fibre provided rather than a staple diet.

As for the contents, in German, there is no ingredient by ingredient breakdown, Im assuming that the collection method from uncultivated land would render this impossible.

[Kirkie]

RFM,

Predation and fire are two more big killers. Im not sure what percentage of deaths are dietry related, would love to read that reference if you have it Dan.

Next year it'll be poo samples from March to december, see how it varies. I still think that the pics are the net result of the gross eaten by the tortoises and that the other dietry content has beenvvirtually fully utilised. I may have to pull a poo
apart, see how closely it resembles what went in.


Its gonna be a long winter....

Wendy,

Maybe in ten years or so.

[Kirkie]

I dug out a few weigh in's for the summer, all given this regime.

Female T H Hermanni

April 12th*314 grams
Sept 29th 373 grams

Female T H hercegovinensis
April 12th 565 grams
Sept 29th 674 grams

Male T H Boettgeri
April 12th 254 grams
Sept 29th*320 grams

[Kirkie]

Yeah, they were outside. Their enclosures are very well planted in the spring, by June I was supplimenting this with weeds I'd picked as the enclosures have been eaten bare. *As the summer went on the feeder weeds were a lot drier, both picked and ones I'd prepared. Most of July the tortoise were on a very short daily activity cycle, it was very hot here and the main feed that month was Pre Alpin and dried weeds. *The Pre alpin has been included in their diet right through to hibernation earlier this month.