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Old 27-09-2011, 09:46 PM   #11
Arcadiajohn
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It's all species dependant but yes 30cms is a great fitting height. These lamps are 100% protected from nasties and as long as they are fitted correctly I.E top down there is no chance of over exposure. Reptiles are designed to deal with a massively bright light source I.E the sun but from above only, side on illumination is not a good idea.

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Thanks John, those figures are food for thought. Its a jump to uvb levels of that order from a tube and no mistake. I was just wondering how high I would want to mount the tubes from the tortoise. At a rough estimtate, if using a reflector I wouldn't want the animal closer than about about 30cm. Under those conditions the accumulated exposure to uvb would soon add up.
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Old 27-09-2011, 11:32 PM   #12
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Whats the decay rate on these tubes?

It's fine quoting high numbers but that kind of exposure on a daily basis in no way replicates sunlight. The sun moves across the sky, angle and the atmosphere means at the times tortoises need to bask (early morning, late afternoon) UV levels are nowhere at their peak and no tortoise remains exposed when temperatures and therefore UV levels are at their peak. Though the figures quoted are by no means excessive I don't feel these levels are nessesary throughtout an enclosure with hides the only retreat from these levels.*

It boils down to whether you think a reptile exposing itself to ultra violet light is a consious decision or a simple by product of thermoregulation. I'm fairly confident that under an hour a day at those levels of exposure would generate sufficient vitamin D3 for a med tortoise.*

I can see a use for these tubes but in place of an MVB with an alternative heating arrangement but these plus an MVB, *excessive in the average tortoise setup in my humble opinion. I'd go UVB basking sopt and a lower intensity daylight type tube or a non UVB heat source using the light from the tube as the cue to bask (this works with a ceramic heater/tube combo very well, the tortoise move out to bask as soon as the tube comes on, with just the ceramic on the don't move, that old light/heat connection they make).

**Much like the temperature gradient, I'd prefer a UV gradient and a lighting regime that encourages natural behaviour patterns via a fairly close replication of sunlight. I've said it a lot recently; I'm concengrating more on the UV index figure of lighting than the intensity of the usable UVB. If it looks like sunlight, it's gotta be good right? I include in this features through which the light is dappled or shaded; hides, artificial and real plants.*
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Old 28-09-2011, 12:21 AM   #13
Ozric Jonathan
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I agree with part of what Dave says here. But, if we don't think an excess of D3 really arises, is it any problem? Maybe its better to be generous with the uvb.

But it's also true that this is nothing like nature, with a possible 170 uw/cm2 being provided 12 hours a day every day. Of course we could turn it off some of the time but then we would need another non-uv light source and that's just getting silly.

The wild ones avoid the heat of the day and the peak uv that comes with it. Sometimes for weeks at a time like those Spanish ones Andy Highfield was observing. And we're not ever going to want to try and replicate that.

So, one way to look at it is that its always going to be unnatural. Even with this tube, the uvb is a lot less than what it would be at peak in natural conditions. In a way maybe it's the constancy of the uv output level that could become a disadvantage with this tube.

I'm of the view that the tortoises are not 'consciously' doing anything but their instinct is to seek heat within limits and as a result they get the uv. Maybe one way to use these tubes is to be very thoughtful about where the heat is provided, knowing that the tortoise will seek that out till it's warm and then move in and out. But which way will it move? Nobody knows.

Where I agree with Dave totally is that using these tubes AND an mvb lamp is perhaps over the top. Surely that would end up with the tortoise being exposed to accumulated uvb that would be well beyond nature. I accept there is significant uvb in the shade in natural habitats but in the summer there are long periods when the wild ones would be in deep shade or dug down and getting none at all.

I'd better stop this or I'll convince myself that what I need is a set of the new T5 tubes in addition to other heat and light sources and that there should be a series of lights going on and off at different times. The last thing I need is another uvb source without getting rid of the current one!
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Old 28-09-2011, 08:48 AM   #14
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The wild ones avoid the heat of the day and the peak uv that comes with it
But is it not more than likely it's the heat they are avoiding rather than the UVB, does anyone know if they are deliberately avoiding the UVB or not? Perhaps they would be quite happy to sit in that stregth of UVB if it wasn't for the need of heat?

I know a guy that tried to replicate the sun in his fish tank with a series of lamps timers dimmers etc, sunrise to sunset - even a moonlight bulb and the bottom line was his fish didn't look any better nor live any longer than mine but I think he had a kind of self satisfaction from doing it The fish were born and bred in a tank though so maybe they thought, what is this guy on

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Old 28-09-2011, 10:18 AM   #15
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Hi guys,

These lamps produce whopping amounts of energy, but still no where near the amount of energy our sun would. We always advise a photo and thermal gradient, this is why we advise with regard to T8 replacement that a lamp two thirds the size of the enclosure is used and not whole length absence was.

Reptiles are more than able to "see" uv patterns and will consciously decide when and where to allow exposure in the wild.

Reptiles are by far the real experts at Uv and it's effects.

So a photo gradient from bright and heat to cools and shade is always advised as is breaks in the day via timers to replicate cloud cover.

For us the D3 cycle is vital to the survival of captive reptiles.....but what about the other reported 100 chemical and hormonal changes in and around the body of an animal that are already suggested with regard to exposure to UVA and UVB. I will point out again that we are governed by the animal welfare act, this alone would require the use Of UVA to allow the right of freedom to behave normally through the right to natural colour vision as designed in nature for tortoise vision. There is also the right to freedom from discomfort, freedom from pain and injury and disease including MBD allowed to become apparent in a reptile through underpowered lamps or unregulated synthetic suplimentation. Then there is The freedom from fear and distress which could be associated with stress bought on by unnatural surroundings. I have to say
that RSPCA fully support these findings.

With regard to power depreciation, these lamps are designed to be potent for a one year period based on an 8-10 hour day. You can be assured that the depreciation during this time is slight, it is the nature if these lamps to grow in power over the first 100 hours and this will be apparent daily as the lumens increase over this time. The uv will stabilise and leave either 6% or 12% of total light emission at the percentage, after the burn in and for a year.



Hope this is helpful

John.
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Old 28-09-2011, 10:30 AM   #16
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Hi John. Yes it is useful - for me at least. I think you are saying that we shouldn't 'blast' the whole enclosure with the light from the tubes and that the tortoise should have options to expose themselves to different levels of uv without having to be cold to avoid it. So we have to be thoughtful about how we design the habitat.

I personally do provide uv lighting and think it's beneficial and important for my tortoises when they are indoors.

Thanks for your taking the time to add to the discussion and I'll read over your post again later when I have more time.
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