Formulated Diets

[Lorna]

Originally Posted by Geomyda

I firmly agree, that such studies would indeed, be helpful. It would however, require a good uniform sample of animals suitable for such a study. Any suggestions, where such an assemblage might be found?
Of course, it should also be defined with proper controls, and necessary protocols.

Sodium control isn't that simple, unfortunately.
At the very least you would need a 24 hr urine collection.

[Kirkie]

It's been used as a method in a study of the potassium content of the urates of Desert tortoises.

Would blood tests be preferable to urine tests?

Its all in here, page 3 and does indicate both that the kidneys flush excessive sodium chloride but also that excessive salt intake can lead to hypernatremia.

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/ACVP...bell2/IVIS.pdf

As for study groups, you aren't going to find many people with access to wild tortoises, captive tortoises on a plant diet and captive tortoises on a solely formulated diet. (unless you cut out the pet shop and go straight to the wholesaler ). The other problem is those that advocate either feeding regime are unlikely to "subject" a tortoise to the other way.

I can think of two people who, in conjunction, could compile study groups. One started this thread about the other one....

[Balboa]

Great stuff Kirkie, obviously a far more coherent mind than my own.

This is a key example of some great things about this forum that is lacking in some of the others. Rather than dismissing notions outright they are being discussed rationally and possible research courses explored, rather than the forum leader dictating their beliefs on the subject.

[onarock]

Whats the difference? Weather someone wants to shoot down the formulated diets or simply point out perceived flaws, I suspect their point is moot. I guess in doing such, they will then have to question their own "formulated" diet. My point is this... weather you buy a commercial formulated diet or you yourself walk the isles of your local market and buy the individual veggies that make up "your" formulated diet, I would think both will fall short of the tortoses natural choices. Ed, the fact that the other individual will not allow you to debate this topic on his site speaks volumes.

Originally Posted by EJ

While these are mostly pelleted... not all are formulated based on a chelonians nutritional requirement. Many of the newer diets seem to be based on 'gut feeling'... which is not always a bad thing but as many have posted in the past is not time tested. I do think 20 or 30 years and a few generations is a pretty good indicator as to the quality of a diet.

Now... this post has another purpose... because of the membership base I think I might get the results I'm looking for.

I've been following a formulated thread on two other forums... both of which I'm not allowed to respond to. Knowing how the rumor mill works so efficiently I'm sure I can get a response here... eventually.

This post is specifically directed to the owner of a specific group and members of the subscribers to his particular group.

There are specific studies associated with studies using the Mazuri tortoise diet which is distributed by a totally different company here in the states than that which is distributed in the UK.

The Zoos and institutions that use the diet conducted trial studies as most zoos and institutions which intend to use a new diet. This is especially true in the case of a commercially formulated diet.

The main problem with making the studies is that the these institutions do not want to give the impression that they are endorsing the diet. This would most likely lead to the accusation of impropriety.

The nutritionists of the manufacturer does not want to release because they feel that the intent of those that are interested in the information are only interested in slandering the company and are not really on a fact finding mission... they are basically fishing know knowing what exactly they are looking for. In other words... if you have a problem with the diet do your own research and produce your own results.

A couple points caught my attention in those discussions... The most humorous is the topic of salt or more specifically... sodium. In many posts the owner of this group mentions that many of the diets are too high in sodium... and... goes on about this at length. Then... there is one post where he out and out states that the tolerance or requirement for sodium is totally unknown in tortoises.

This leads to the next question that is consistently sidestepped... protein... what is the tolerance and what is the requirement of protein for tortoises.

Finally... I'm constantly asked for proof... reworded... studies... very hard to come by specifically relating to tortoises. The most well studied tortoises are the Galapagos and the California Desert tortoise. If there is anything to be found on any of these topics it will be found there but those studies that I've pointed out in the past have been dismissed as being non applicable to Mediterranean Tortoises or African Tortoises.

I'd like to ask this person... where is your proof that any of these diets are harmful to chelonians... Most of us would accept evidence as food for thought... as I have provided.

Drop the rhetoric... and provide some substantial evidence to support you claims.