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Old 13-01-2010, 01:00 AM   #91
Kirkie
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Note to self: Don't mention the war. I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it...
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Old 13-01-2010, 01:14 AM   #92
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good point.
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Note to self: Don't mention the war. I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it...
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Old 13-01-2010, 02:22 AM   #93
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Aquatic turtle, the adults will hibernate underwater in the main, so fairy stable but the thing I aways remember if from one of the Attenborough series where hatchling terrapins remain underground in the nest through their first winter and there was footage of them literally freezing. I'd really like to track that footage down if anyone recalls it?
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Old 13-01-2010, 02:24 AM   #94
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I stand corrected on some aspects of small mammal hiberation. It seems some species do drop their core body temperature, but they're not doing the hibernation thing properly, they have to get up every few days, have a run around to raise their core temperature, eat etc. Still very different from reptillian hibernation.

There's also a bit on Bears but according to another article I just read it's very hard to study whether hibernating bears live longer than non hibernaters because the average Black Bear is shot dead by the age of 10.


Denning and Hibernation Behavior

Hibernation is an adaptation to a seasonal shortage of food, low environmental temperatures, and snow cover on the ground (Craighead and Craighead 1972; Tietje and Ruff 1980). Bears hibernate during the winter months in most areas of the world. Duration of winter denning is dependent upon latitude and varies from a few days or weeks for black bears in Mexico to 6 months or more for bears in Alaska (Kolenosky and Strathearn 1987, Haroldson et al. 2002). The denning period in Yellowstone National Park is approximately 5 months.
For many years some people did not consider bears to be true hibernators. Mammals considered true, or deep hibernators, such as chipmunks and ground squirrels, experience a drastic decrease in body temperature during hibernation. Body temperature for hibernating bears remains above 88°F (31°C) which is within 12°F (11°C) of their normal body temperature of 100°–101°F (37.7°–38.3°C) (Bagget 1984). This allows bears to react to danger quicker than hibernators whose body temperature may be less than 40° F (4° C) and who have to warm up before they can move quickly (Bagget 1984). Many scientists now consider bears to be super hibernators. Due to the highly insulative pelts of bears and their lower surface area to mass ratio than smaller hibernators, body heat is lost slowly which enables bears to cut their metabolic rate by 50-60% (Craighead and Craighead 1972; Rogers 1981). Respirations in bears decrease from 6-10 breaths per minute normally, to 1 breath every 45 seconds during hibernation. They experience a drop in heart rate from 40-50 beats per minute during the summer to 8-19 beats per minute during hibernation. Mammals that experience lower body temperatures during hibernation, such as chipmunks and ground squirrels, must awaken every few days to raise their body temperature, move around, urinate, and eat (Rogers 1981). Grizzly bears and black bears generally do not eat, drink, defecate, or urinate during hibernation. Bears live off of a layer of fat built up during the summer and fall months prior to hibernation. Waste products are produced, however, instead of disposing of their metabolic waste, bears recycle it. The urea produced from fat metabolism (fatal at high levels) is broken down and the resulting nitrogen is used by the bear to build protein, which allows them to maintain muscle mass and organ tissues (Rogers 1981). Bears lose fat and may actually increase lean-body mass while hibernating due to this nitrogen recycling (Wickelgren 1988). Bears may loose 15-30 % of their body weight during hibernation (Rogers 1981
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Old 13-01-2010, 03:21 AM   #95
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Mamalian andReptilian hibernation are no where near the same thing except in the case of some turtles and some anphibs...


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I stand corrected on some aspects of small mammal hiberation. It seems some species do drop their core body temperature, but they're not doing the hibernation thing properly, they have to get up every few days, have a run around to raise their core temperature, eat etc. Still very different from reptillian hibernation.

There's also a bit on Bears but according to another article I just read it's very hard to study whether hibernating bears live longer than non hibernaters because the average Black Bear is shot dead by the age of 10.


Denning and Hibernation Behavior

Hibernation is an adaptation to a seasonal shortage of food, low environmental temperatures, and snow cover on the ground (Craighead and Craighead 1972; Tietje and Ruff 1980). Bears hibernate during the winter months in most areas of the world. Duration of winter denning is dependent upon latitude and varies from a few days or weeks for black bears in Mexico to 6 months or more for bears in Alaska (Kolenosky and Strathearn 1987, Haroldson et al. 2002). The denning period in Yellowstone National Park is approximately 5 months.
For many years some people did not consider bears to be true hibernators. Mammals considered true, or deep hibernators, such as chipmunks and ground squirrels, experience a drastic decrease in body temperature during hibernation. Body temperature for hibernating bears remains above 88°F (31°C) which is within 12°F (11°C) of their normal body temperature of 100°–101°F (37.7°–38.3°C) (Bagget 1984). This allows bears to react to danger quicker than hibernators whose body temperature may be less than 40° F (4° C) and who have to warm up before they can move quickly (Bagget 1984). Many scientists now consider bears to be super hibernators. Due to the highly insulative pelts of bears and their lower surface area to mass ratio than smaller hibernators, body heat is lost slowly which enables bears to cut their metabolic rate by 50-60% (Craighead and Craighead 1972; Rogers 1981). Respirations in bears decrease from 6-10 breaths per minute normally, to 1 breath every 45 seconds during hibernation. They experience a drop in heart rate from 40-50 beats per minute during the summer to 8-19 beats per minute during hibernation. Mammals that experience lower body temperatures during hibernation, such as chipmunks and ground squirrels, must awaken every few days to raise their body temperature, move around, urinate, and eat (Rogers 1981). Grizzly bears and black bears generally do not eat, drink, defecate, or urinate during hibernation. Bears live off of a layer of fat built up during the summer and fall months prior to hibernation. Waste products are produced, however, instead of disposing of their metabolic waste, bears recycle it. The urea produced from fat metabolism (fatal at high levels) is broken down and the resulting nitrogen is used by the bear to build protein, which allows them to maintain muscle mass and organ tissues (Rogers 1981). Bears lose fat and may actually increase lean-body mass while hibernating due to this nitrogen recycling (Wickelgren 1988). Bears may loose 15-30 % of their body weight during hibernation (Rogers 1981
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Old 13-01-2010, 09:02 AM   #96
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Note to self: Don't mention the war. I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6L...&p=4PbxlzthIzQ

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Old 13-01-2010, 10:22 AM   #97
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Oh what a classic
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Old 13-01-2010, 01:37 PM   #98
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I have not hibernated Lily this year but only because I get frightened that something will go wrong - and the fasting would tear me up inside. Plus Lily has not gone into complete slowdown, or stop. I know that may sound selfish. I will be honest. I dont like the idea of hibernating Lily. I have read through this post and most of the things I have read on here are things I have thought about and questioned myself. I guess its weighing up the best option, for each persons tortoise. Who are we to judge that they are ready to or not ready to. Lily has been fine this winter. Ok he has been on a bit of a slow down but with love and support of my family and constant trying to make sure Lily is catered for with weeds, heat, light - as best I can - then to me he has not had the hibernation gene kicking in.
Tortoises are by species - mainly wild at heart and undomesticated. But I question that with enough time - any animal or reptile or other, would almost effortlessly become domesticated - as it is all they have known since being born. Rightly or wrongly, we will never be able to give them what they have in the wild. We just can mimic it the best we can but if all they have known is having that light, that heat, the weeds diet - us tending to their every need - then hell, its all good isnt it? Maybe its not the wild but (at least for me, in my opinion) I am giving Lily a better, happier life. Almost a life a luxury to what he would be having "out there". I dont see that as wrong, I see that as a success.
So if we have them in our CARE and gradually over time - they could become domesticated then maybe the need to hibernate becomes less important. As has been said (have asked this myself) - where is the facts that say their health or wellbeing will suffer if you do not.
But....big but, I never have ruled it out but its individual choice on what they think their tortoise needs or if he/she is showing the signs of wanting to. I have tried to let Lily tell me - if he slept all day and did not eat for days, I would say Lily is telling me that this is his decision. But if he is thriving, and his activity is still good then I keep things as normal as I can.
I will leave this post now as I am no expert on this at all. I am sure all on here have a greater knowledge than me and anyone who reads this post can make a good sound decision based on what they read on this.
xx ps - hello to all on here. laptop returning today . whoop whoop.
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Old 13-01-2010, 03:44 PM   #99
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Before this thread got sidetracked with bears (hey Boo Boo), WW II and internet grooming, I think we were hurtling toward the conclusion that you provide the tortoise with conditions which cause it to enter hibernation to hibernate it, it won't tell you (by it's behaviour) that it wants too necessarily. I'm still thinking the conditions vary from species to species and that there are cue's which may not seem obvious to us that the tortoise picks up on and reacts too, the great October Horsfield not eating/hiding away phenomenon.
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