23-04-2013, 08:24 AM | #71 | |
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23-04-2013, 09:24 AM | #72 | |
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Some years ago, I attended a lecture about the diversity of Meditterranean tortoise species. From memory, the presentation indicated that cross breeding was unusual in the wild populations that overlap. I seem to remember that the anatomical differences in the genitalia of the different species made successful copulation unlikely. That said, in some of the Freshwater and semi aquatic turtle species such natural geographical overlaps frequently seem to result in natural "inter grades". Last edited by Geomyda; 23-04-2013 at 11:13 AM. |
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23-04-2013, 09:51 AM | #73 |
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Ed you stated As mentioned... all tortoises have the exact same basic needs. The need for different methods for keeping different species arises from trying to acclimate WC animals for the most part. Animals become behaviourally imprinted over time.
The capability of survival by some animal species in their own environment is not behaviourally linked it is physiological. This was shown by D.Jackson in many of his papers and later his book when he compared the O2 uptake capabilities of different turtle species many within the same family. The dogma comment comes from the continual almost religious push that behavioural imprinting is the (only) answer. The Angel fish comment brings us back to the more interesting thread. In the seventies when discus breeding started the same problems were encountered and PH, food and tannins were all factors that were considered. I eventually bred them from a second generation stock. The mechanism that enables the later generation successes is unlikely to be imprinting but merely rigorous genetic selection early in the breeding process. Those of the feral turtles that survive may not have been successful due to successful imprinting but rather to a more amenable genetic make-up compliant with the harsh UK environment. Remember that the number of animals that survive the outdoors in the UK are a minute proportion of the number released and they may have genetic attributes that make that fraction of a difference. Taking this further, if those same animals were bred, then just like the Angels and Discus the likely proportion of the progeny surviving outside would be significantly better than seen by their parents. The question developing now has to be; when you made the assertion above was it based on your experience with animals that are several generations into burn and had the genetic filter already happened? I am in not disputing the imprinting concept as I have seen this myself with my animals and especially with fish, I just don’t think it as big a factor as you do. This is a good debate and leads me ask; If a breeder were to take Red Foots into Kazakhstan and imprint them there, would they survive outside as do the Russians? Rom |
23-04-2013, 01:04 PM | #74 | |
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How is that dogmatic?
Last time I looked Testudo, Sulcata, Leopards, Aldabras... do not naturally occur in the UK yet there are people breeding these species in conditions that is nowhere near what they would experience in their natural environment. If you don't consider this proof it is at least evidence of their adaptability. I don't see how you can dispute the point. Nowhere did I say you or anyone else had to believe or follow my thoughts... Quote:
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23-04-2013, 01:13 PM | #75 |
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In terms of adaptive behaviour Ed, there is work by the Austrian Zoologist Konrad Lorenz, which describes imprinting behaviour in Birds. Most famously, the clutch of Greylag Geese that imprinted on him decades ago. This involved him having to swim around Austrian Lakes trying to re establish natural Goose behaviour.
I have visions of You wandering around Atlanta with herds of fifteen species of Tortoise trying to teach them life skills!! |
23-04-2013, 01:23 PM | #76 | |
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hmmm... interesting. Why would I try to imprint a tortoise to make it more difficult for me to keep them? I have no intention on releasing them into the wild.
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01-05-2013, 08:20 AM | #77 |
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Great Thread,
I've suspected for a long time that the majority of tortoises actually have nearly identical "optimal" environmental and nutritional requirements, and what we tend to think of as their "typical" conditions are really just the extremes that they learn to tolerate through behavioral adaptation. In other words, tortoises grow during the warm and humid times of the year when plants are actively growing, and simply "maintain" during cooler or drier seasons. This is of course simply arm chair theory |
01-05-2013, 12:41 PM | #78 | |
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Nothing wrong with this.
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