sulcata breeders?

[Baoh]

Originally Posted by Mick.Ire

I don't know if I would incubate eggs if my female sulcata and male leopard mated. Do we know of any health problems or deformities with hatchlings?

In terms of evidence, I have never seen a deformed sulcataXleo hybrid. I have seen only perfect ones.

[Mick.Ire]

Originally Posted by EJ

Give that a little thought. Why would there be any health issues. The entire species concept is based on human perception. Do you really think the tortoises give a damn one way or the other? Do you really think they know they are different. If it wasn't meant to be it wouldn't happen.

You agreed that it is most unlikely to occurr in the wild so to to say if it wasn't meant to be it wouldn't happen..............well it doesn't happen. It only happens when us people intervene.
If it doesn't happen naturally then is it meant to be?
Is our job as keepers not to try and replicate the natural enviorment therefore encourage the most natural behaviour.

I'm neither for nor against at the moment, I'm just putting both sides of the coin out there.
They really are stunning looking tortoises and it would be very hard to turn one down.

The reason I asked if there is any health issues is because with some mixed breeds of dogs there can be, like their hips not being wide enough to give birth. Surely this isn't natural?
I know reptiles and mammals are completely different but I'm just wondering if down the road will health issues arise. Perhaps not as the inbreeding practice with reptiles doesn't seem to have the same effect as mammals.
Just food for thought.

Once again I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just opening up the discussion.

[Mick.Ire]

Originally Posted by Baoh

In terms of evidence, I have never seen a deformed sulcataXleo hybrid. I have seen only perfect ones.

Cool thanks.

[EJ]

How do you know what their range was 2000 years ago? They pretty much originated from the same gene pool at one time.

Again... they are pets.

Still again... most tortoises are not kept in an environment anything like the experience in nature. They are kept in environments which we perceive those environments... which is usually only slightly close.

Most dogs are mixed breeds and not mixed species. Excessive inbreeding is just as bad as not enough inbreeding.

Originally Posted by Mick.Ire

You agreed that it is most unlikely to occurr in the wild so to to say if it wasn't meant to be it wouldn't happen..............well it doesn't happen. It only happens when us people intervene.
If it doesn't happen naturally then is it meant to be?
Is our job as keepers not to try and replicate the natural enviorment therefore encourage the most natural behaviour.

I'm neither for nor against at the moment, I'm just putting both sides of the coin out there.
They really are stunning looking tortoises and it would be very hard to turn one down.

The reason I asked if there is any health issues is because with some mixed breeds of dogs there can be, like their hips not being wide enough to give birth. Surely this isn't natural?
I know reptiles and mammals are completely different but I'm just wondering if down the road will health issues arise. Perhaps not as the inbreeding practice with reptiles doesn't seem to have the same effect as mammals.
Just food for thought.

Once again I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just opening up the discussion.

[Mick.Ire]

Excessive inbreeding is just as bad as not enough inbreeding???????

Surely any inbreeding should be avoided if possible. To say they all came from the same gene pool anyway so its ok isn't really valid. Does that make it ok for us humans to mate with chimps. If you go far back enough we both would have a common gene pool.

[EJ]

Some inbreeding is required to maintain a strong gene pool. In nature it occurs all the time. I really don't think tortoises have any fromal social structure. Inbreeding not only accents the weak genes but equally accents the strong genes needed for survival of the fittest and all that.

It's not socially acceptable for humans to mate with animals. That's a human condition.

Originally Posted by Mick.Ire

Excessive inbreeding is just as bad as not enough inbreeding???????

Surely any inbreeding should be avoided if possible. To say they all came from the same gene pool anyway so its ok isn't really valid. Does that make it ok for us humans to mate with chimps. If you go far back enough we both would have a common gene pool.

[TBH123]

Fair enough you didnt know that the male Leopard had mated the Sulcata, but why after this being something that was unknown to you; sell them for £500 each or 2 for 900??? If it was an accident and unexpected, surely you shouldn't use them as a money making opportunity?

did it cost you anymore to incubate and raise them?

I dont personally see why anyone would pay this amount of money for an animal that will most likely be sterile.

[EJ]

I wouldn't pay that amount. £100 would be a fair price. I'd like to find out if they were sterile or not.

Originally Posted by TBH123

Fair enough you didnt know that the male Leopard had mated the Sulcata, but why after this being something that was unknown to you; sell them for £500 each or 2 for 900??? If it was an accident and unexpected, surely you shouldn't use them as a money making opportunity?

did it cost you anymore to incubate and raise them?

I dont personally see why anyone would pay this amount of money for an animal that will most likely be sterile.

[Mick.Ire]

yeah it just seems to be done for the wrong reason. It's money that seems to be the main motivation here.
Anyway we strayed off the point, inbreeding and crossbreeding are completely different things.
I'm not totaly opposed to the idea, I'd like to see more research done into the results of the offspring, health wise.
I suppose it's every keepers choice to incubate or not.

[Daryn]

Ive been reading this with interest and I'm not sure what I think to be honest. I'm no expert and really only started studying tortoises this year since not having one from being a child.

Ive read where someone mentions dog's being cross breeds etc and I'm still not sure what to think about it. The torts do look amazing I have to say but I would also like to hear more about study of these beasts like or they sterile etc.

Domestic dogs very rarely live in the wild so wolves are still wolves there does not seem to be any problems there, I don't think these torts will ever live in the wild so again hopefully nothing will happen to pure breeds, think about lonesome George here the last of the species that has since died and gone forever.

Cross breeds between lions and tigers (Liger's) do they occur in the wild or just captive bread.

I think I prefer to keep them as natural as possible, Ill be looking for a male tort to go with my female but would want the same species, TBH I wouldn't want to take a chance with health issues or deformity in the young etc but Im not saying its all wrong its just my opinion.