hatchlings unable to open mouth

[Hanako]

update on the hatchlings
One of the two I described is alright. It was lack of skills with the eating, not inability to open its mouth. But the other one is still unable to open its mouth, still not eating, just stays alive by drinking water through her nose. I called various vets and no one wanted to try anything (she is really small, like 20 pence size, 10 grams). They said she is too small to risk any intervention. I can't believe that the baby has lasted without food for a month and it is still alive. Finally I found one vet who was willing to try, even though it is a risk and he is not even a reptile specialist. Mind you, if we don't try anything, she will die, if we try, we are risking her life but at least we tried. Anyway, the vet used gas to make her sleep and then tried to open her mouth. He managed to open the mouth. Then the tortoise recovered from the anaesthetics and is roaming happily around the enclosure, but it appears that she still can't open her mouth on her own. she is keenly going for food, but only sticking her head into it and not opening her mouth to eat it (even though she appears desperate to eat). Considering that the vet had it open when she slept, it is clear that it is not anything stuck physically preventing for the mouth to open. So my guess is that either something is wrong with the jaw joint, or maybe somehow her muscles on her mouth/jaw nor responding. (Or she could be completely stupid not realising that the food need to actually go into her mouth, rather than just dipping her head in it? Unlikely. I think eating is reflex. Animals and peoples know that they have to eat.)

[sandy]

Originally Posted by Hanako

update on the hatchlings
One of the two I described is alright. It was lack of skills with the eating, not inability to open its mouth. But the other one is still unable to open its mouth, still not eating, just stays alive by drinking water through her nose. I called various vets and no one wanted to try anything (she is really small, like 20 pence size, 10 grams). They said she is too small to risk any intervention. I can't believe that the baby has lasted without food for a month and it is still alive. Finally I found one vet who was willing to try, even though it is a risk and he is not even a reptile specialist. Mind you, if we don't try anything, she will die, if we try, we are risking her life but at least we tried. Anyway, the vet used gas to make her sleep and then tried to open her mouth. He managed to open the mouth. Then the tortoise recovered from the anaesthetics and is roaming happily around the enclosure, but it appears that she still can't open her mouth on her own. she is keenly going for food, but only sticking her head into it and not opening her mouth to eat it (even though she appears desperate to eat). Considering that the vet had it open when she slept, it is clear that it is not anything stuck physically preventing for the mouth to open. So my guess is that either something is wrong with the jaw joint, or maybe somehow her muscles on her mouth/jaw nor responding. (Or she could be completely stupid not realising that the food need to actually go into her mouth, rather than just dipping her head in it? Unlikely. I think eating is reflex. Animals and peoples know that they have to eat.)

Are you making a puree of food?
Can you get food into the mouth?
You might well be right about the jaw?
It might well be (dont know how long ago the mouth was freed) in time your tortoise will get the hang of things.
Time will tell.

[Hanako]

Originally Posted by sandy

Are you making a puree of food?
Can you get food into the mouth?
You might well be right about the jaw?
It might well be (dont know how long ago the mouth was freed) in time your tortoise will get the hang of things.
Time will tell.

No, unfortunately she doesn't open her mouth at all, and puréed food won't go through her nostrils. (I haven't tried, but I don't think that would be a very pleasant way to eat).
The mouth was feed today. But I don't think it is about getting hang of things. If she could open it, she would have done it. She is so keen to eat!

[emma_mcraf]

Thanks for the update. Firstly I'm glad the first hatchling is now eating successfully. You were right not to give up on them. I'm sorry to hear that the other one seems unable to eat still. I'll keep everything crossed that something will click into place and it'll know what to do but I would imagine there must be a problem somewhere preventing her from opening her mouth. Poor little mite as it sounds like she wants to eat.

[Hanako]

Originally Posted by emma_mcraf

Thanks for the update. Firstly I'm glad the first hatchling is now eating successfully. You were right not to give up on them. I'm sorry to hear that the other one seems unable to eat still. I'll keep everything crossed that something will click into place and it'll know what to do but I would imagine there must be a problem somewhere preventing her from opening her mouth. Poor little mite as it sounds like she wants to eat.

To be fair, I think I lost hope today. Somehow I made myself believe that perhaps bit of the muck was stuck between his top and bottom part of the beak and that if someone clears it up, everything will be fine. So today, after the vet opened it up by force, in theory it should be working and it isn't. That make me realise that is must be the jaw joint that is not working right. Which means it won't get better. And yet I can't make myself have her put down. Not sure, is it selfishness? The tortoise is not thriving, not putting on weight, but also not losing weight and not getting weaker. She doesn't seem to show any signs that she is suffering (even though her desperate attempts to stick her head into food indicates that she must be hungry). Quite honestly, I am shocked how long she has lasted, surviving only on water. I haven't been adding any vitamins or critical care formula into the water, I am waiting for the nature to take its course, and yet I can't make myself to have her put down. I am wondering whether it is cruel. Probably it is, but it is no different than what would happen in the wild. Or maybe I am still hoping for a miracle, even though I know it won't come?

[emma_mcraf]

Originally Posted by Hanako

To be fair, I think I lost hope today. Somehow I made myself believe that perhaps bit of the muck was stuck between his top and bottom part of the beak and that if someone clears it up, everything will be fine. So today, after the vet opened it up by force, in theory it should be working and it isn't. That make me realise that is must be the jaw joint that is not working right. Which means it won't get better. And yet I can't make myself have her put down. Not sure, is it selfishness? The tortoise is not thriving, not putting on weight, but also not losing weight and not getting weaker. She doesn't seem to show any signs that she is suffering (even though her desperate attempts to stick her head into food indicates that she must be hungry). Quite honestly, I am shocked how long she has lasted, surviving only on water. I haven't been adding any vitamins or critical care formula into the water, I am waiting for the nature to take its course, and yet I can't make myself to have her put down. I am wondering whether it is cruel. Probably it is, but it is no different than what would happen in the wild. Or maybe I am still hoping for a miracle, even though I know it won't come?

You're in an awful predicament. I know that I'd struggle to take her to be put to sleep too, especially as she survived the anaesthetic today. It is amazing that such a young little hatchling can survive just on water for so long. I imagine it's only a matter of time for nature to take its course but it's so sad imagining her attempting to eat and being unable to do so. I wish that miracle would come for you.

[Gordon]

I'm going to be blunt and you won't like me for it take it to a vet and have it put to sleep all you are doing is letting it waste away and it is also probably suffering by now.

[Hanako]

Originally Posted by Gordon

I'm going to be blunt and you won't like me for it take it to a vet and have it put to sleep all you are doing is letting it waste away and it is also probably suffering by now.

Maybe you are right, but maybe you are not. Isn't that the same what some people here were advising me to do with my big girl who was so unwell about a year ago? Not only she pulled through, she also gave me 10 babies this year. If I gave up on her, wouldn't that be well intended murder? What gives a person right to play God? Quite honestly, I don't know at this moment what to do with the baby, but if I let it waste away, isn't that exactly what would happen in the wild? At this moment I am trying to figure out what's right. You may agree with me or not, but I don't think the answer to this question is so straightforward. I have only ever had one tortoise die, and at least it happened unexpectedly without me having to make any decisions. So this is still a bit unresolved issue for me.

[Gordon]

Who is playing god? You need to understand that when you have animals you will always have hard decisions to make you are too rapped up in the well if I give it a chance thing you need to put your sensible head on and do the right thing and end it's suffering and stop messing around there is a reason it can't eat so it was never meant to be was it. I have tried on numerous occasions to try and keep babies alive when they have a problem and it really isn't worth it.
This has nothing to do with advise you were given on your other tortoise this is sensible advice as to what you need to do baby tortoises can take weeks to die which I'm sure is not nice for them is it.

[burnt toast]

Its great news that one hatchlings problem is resolved but you must help the other Hannah. Be that humane euthanasia or trying to nourish it. It simply isnt an option to do nothing. I know you say this would happen in the wild but she isnt in the wild is she? You need to make a decision (which I know first hand is very hard ) you could offer nourishment while your making your decision but its unfair and cruel to let it starve

You dont make a puree to be forced through its nares. At this tiny size critical care or watered down babyfood in its soaks will be sufficient.

My vet actually got my little one with this problems mouth open too and made a tiny hole, indent in one side of her mouth which was helpful as she never opened itself but I feel this may have let a bit of liquid food through. The rest she got from soaks.