3 Hermann's sex id, please

supremelysteve · 25-09-2009, 07:43 PM

I just received three Hermann's tortoises that were labeled as captive bred in Europe. Are these actually captive bred? They look to be about 6-7 years old. If they are actually wild-caught, any thoughts on country/region of origin? I think I remember reading Danny posting about Bulgarian Hermann's having 4 toes on the hind feet. These three all have 4 toes on the hind feet.
They are supposed to be 1 male and 2 females. I'm not sure what I have. Number 2 looks definitely female number 3 looks probably female, and if one is a male, I would have to guess it must be number 1.
Thanks,
Steve
#1 4 1/8"

#2 4"

#3 4 1/4"

**egyptiandan64** · 25-09-2009, 08:09 PM

Hi Steve,
The 4 claws is for the front legs as all Hermanns have 4 claws on the back legs.
All 3 look like females to me.

Here goes subspecies.
#1 T.h.boettgeri
#2 T.h.hercegovinensis
#3 T.h.boettgeri

Danny

supremelysteve · 25-09-2009, 11:16 PM

Danny,
Thanks for responding (twice). I am really thinking these may be wild-caught, not captive bred. Is that likely, or are there farms in Europe that raise these up to this size, then sell them? Any idea where they might actually be from?

How would there be a T.h.hercegovinensis in the mix? I don't want to be hybridizing subspecies. If they are captive-bred, then maybe these are already hybridized.

Steve

**egyptiandan64** · 26-09-2009, 01:19 PM

In all likely hood the "farms" are probably "laundering" wild caught tortoises through the farms and passing them off as captive born. I've heard there are now farms in Macedonia and the farms in Slovenia are importing from them and selling on. Macedonia is the border between the 2 subspecies. So yes they could be naturally occuring crosses of the 2 subspecies, but probably just caught from different areas.

Danny

Ozric Jonathan · 27-09-2009, 12:49 AM

It does seem unlikely that any commercial business would raise hatchlings for as long as that because they wouldn't make additional profit even though they had all the costs of keeping them for a number of years. Unless Steve paid a great deal of money for them.

It also seems to me that if the tortoises had been kept in captivity they wouldn't have such smooth growth. Or maybe the 'farmers' pay attention to husbandry and are so good at it that the tortoises grow like this? No, I doubt that as well.

**Alan1** · 27-09-2009, 08:58 AM

Steve, you say they look about 6-7 years old but what does their A10 certificates say?

supremelysteve · 27-09-2009, 02:12 PM

I don't have any certification. I'm assuming age based on counting rings, which I know are notoriously inaccurate. The seller was out of Florida, and knew nothing about their origins, other than what he was told by whoever he bought them from (captive-bred in EU). The seller is has quite a few of them for sale, all around this size.
I just realized #3 has a small "X" carved right above the right (her left) inguinal scute.

The two T. h. boettgeri have 4 claws each on the front feet, and #2 has 5 claws on each front foot.

Steve

**16 shells** · 27-09-2009, 10:48 PM

They are still very nice Steve, the deed is done there are some fairly big two year old Hermans for sale in a repti shop near us, Wild caught i suspect and then farmed, it's becoming a farce.
Paul

26-09-2009, 01:19 PM	#4
egyptiandan64 Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 14,171	In all likely hood the "farms" are probably "laundering" wild caught tortoises through the farms and passing them off as captive born. I've heard there are now farms in Macedonia and the farms in Slovenia are importing from them and selling on. Macedonia is the border between the 2 subspecies. So yes they could be naturally occuring crosses of the 2 subspecies, but probably just caught from different areas. Danny __________________

27-09-2009, 12:49 AM	#5
Ozric Jonathan Senior Member Adult Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: West of Scotland Posts: 4,226	It does seem unlikely that any commercial business would raise hatchlings for as long as that because they wouldn't make additional profit even though they had all the costs of keeping them for a number of years. Unless Steve paid a great deal of money for them. It also seems to me that if the tortoises had been kept in captivity they wouldn't have such smooth growth. Or maybe the 'farmers' pay attention to husbandry and are so good at it that the tortoises grow like this? No, I doubt that as well. __________________ Testudo Hermanni Hermanni (Corse) tortoises

27-09-2009, 10:48 PM	#8
16 shells Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hull Posts: 7,286	They are still very nice Steve, the deed is done there are some fairly big two year old Hermans for sale in a repti shop near us, Wild caught i suspect and then farmed, it's becoming a farce. Paul __________________ Paul.

25-09-2009, 07:43 PM	#1
supremelysteve Junior Member Egg Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 3	3 Hermann's sex id, please I just received three Hermann's tortoises that were labeled as captive bred in Europe. Are these actually captive bred? They look to be about 6-7 years old. If they are actually wild-caught, any thoughts on country/region of origin? I think I remember reading Danny posting about Bulgarian Hermann's having 4 toes on the hind feet. These three all have 4 toes on the hind feet. They are supposed to be 1 male and 2 females. I'm not sure what I have. Number 2 looks definitely female number 3 looks probably female, and if one is a male, I would have to guess it must be number 1. Thanks, Steve #1 4 1/8" #2 4" #3 4 1/4"

25-09-2009, 08:09 PM	#2
egyptiandan64 Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 14,171	Hi Steve, The 4 claws is for the front legs as all Hermanns have 4 claws on the back legs. All 3 look like females to me. Here goes subspecies. #1 T.h.boettgeri #2 T.h.hercegovinensis #3 T.h.boettgeri Danny __________________

25-09-2009, 11:16 PM	#3
supremelysteve Junior Member Egg Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 3	Danny, Thanks for responding (twice). I am really thinking these may be wild-caught, not captive bred. Is that likely, or are there farms in Europe that raise these up to this size, then sell them? Any idea where they might actually be from? How would there be a T.h.hercegovinensis in the mix? I don't want to be hybridizing subspecies. If they are captive-bred, then maybe these are already hybridized. Steve

27-09-2009, 08:58 AM	#6
Alan1 Super Moderator Adult Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sunny Scotland Posts: 21,512	Steve, you say they look about 6-7 years old but what does their A10 certificates say?

27-09-2009, 02:12 PM	#7
supremelysteve Junior Member Egg Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 3	I don't have any certification. I'm assuming age based on counting rings, which I know are notoriously inaccurate. The seller was out of Florida, and knew nothing about their origins, other than what he was told by whoever he bought them from (captive-bred in EU). The seller is has quite a few of them for sale, all around this size. I just realized #3 has a small "X" carved right above the right (her left) inguinal scute. The two T. h. boettgeri have 4 claws each on the front feet, and #2 has 5 claws on each front foot. Steve

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