hatchlings unable to open mouth

[Hanako]

Originally Posted by burnt toast

I had this very problem with a hatchling a few years ago. I felt terrible because it took me nearly three weeks to put my finger on the problem The hatchling was very active, I had been on holiday and when I got back noticed her trying to bite her siblings, my Dad said " the little white one is far too busy to eat"! But I watched her carefully one day and realised that after going through the motions of trying to eat there were no bite marks in the leafs. On close examination (which was hard, as she was only 10 grams I worked out she didnt have a slit on one side where the mouth opening should be. If you gently applied pressure to the mandable one side gaped the other didnt.

Anyway my vet wasnt sure she could do it but managed to make and fit a feeding tube, using a cat vein catheter, which was very small and fiddly. She pulled this out after 2 weeks. I then managed to keep her alive for about a year adding critical care to soaks, sometimes watered down baby food but I couldnt get her past a certain weight and lost her.

Danny reckoned they are sometimes born with a jaw hinge missing or deformed.

Out of interest what temperature did you incubate these at?

Just wondering, if your vet managed to open her mouth enough to fit in a thin tube, why didn't he/she worked on opening the mouth completely and sorting out the problem? Maybe it was just something stuck somewhere? At least that's what I hope is wrong with my two.

I incubated them at 33 degrees Celsia. It shouldn't be the temperature though, because I incubated on this temperature all my past tortoises and they all were fine.

I am impressed that you managed to keep her alive for a year, considering that she couldn't eat. One of my tortoises has a little tiny slit like you described (not sure if on one side or on both) but it is so tiny that it is less than a needle width. It is less than a millimetre. In theory a weed could fit in, but because it is so narrow, she would have to aim so accurately that she just can't manage. The other baby doesn't open it at all, but I do have suspicion that she is using her nose at least for water intake.

I don't know if they have jaw hinge deformed. There is no deformation visible, so I think it may be just some gunk dried possibly from inside or at the place where bottom beak is covered by top beak ( so not quite outside and not inside) and therefore it didn't wash off during her regular baths.

[burnt toast]

The tube was inserted through her neck into her stomach. My vet did manage to get her mouth open and I do remember mentioning a thin skin like membrane, she also filed away some of the edges of the beak creating a hole on one side. Even though the vet managed to get her mouth open I never saw her open it again I think she got most of her nutrition via drinking and absorption in her soaks. I would see her stick her neck right out and really drink. I just added things to her soaks: abidec, critical care, baby food.

The jaw hinge deformity isnt visible to the naked eye, you would need an x ray to spot it.

[Hanako]

Originally Posted by burnt toast

The tube was inserted through her neck into her stomach. My vet did manage to get her mouth open and I do remember mentioning a thin skin like membrane, she also filed away some of the edges of the beak creating a hole on one side. Even though the vet managed to get her mouth open I never saw her open it again I think she got most of her nutrition via drinking and absorption in her soaks. I would see her stick her neck right out and really drink. I just added things to her soaks: abidec, critical care, baby food.

The jaw hinge deformity isnt visible to the naked eye, you would need an x ray to spot it.

Thank you very much for sharing this. It is so sad! Both my tortoise babies look alright, it is just that I noticed that they haven't done poop yet and then I watched, it was the only time I realised that something is very likely not right. So it is quite hard to accept that they may not survive, considering how well they look.

[burnt toast]

It is very sad I did hope to get Ivory to a decent size that the vet could do more to help her but despite trying very hard it wasnt to be. She was beautiful and looked perfect too.

I would try what people have suggested, everythings worth a try. Your welcome to contact me if you want any tips. Please keep us informed. Xx

[burnt toast]

Is one of them the hatchling with the weak neck who you posted about Hannah?

[Hanako]

Originally Posted by burnt toast

Is one of them the hatchling with the weak neck who you posted about Hannah?

Yes, that's the one that doesn't open the mouth at all. I don't really know if it is neck muscles that are weak, or whether she keeps the head down constantly because she is sniffing and searching for something to eat. I know, it sounds ridiculous but she reminds me a bit a dog, with the head constantly down, turning left and right. Today I cut very thin slices of cucumber because all my tortoises love it, I was hoping that it may be extra motivation for those two to try harder to open their mouth. The one that Opens only little bit tried really hard, although I couldn't see any bite marks left. The one with mouth completely closed was just pushing her nose over the top of the thin slice. So I thought maybe I should make it easier - I took the cucumber and grated it very fine. The one that opens a little bit may have been successful, although I have some doubts about how much did she really managed to get in. It reminds me eating a soup with very shallow tea spoon! Anyway, the one that can't open mouth at all buried her head into the pile of finely grated cucumber. Not sure what was the purpose - drinking the juice through nostrils?

[burnt toast]

I did that for a long time too: cut the food up into tiny bits. I also fed her in a tiny plant pot saucer as I found the lip @ the back of it useful to stop her just pushing all the food away from her as used to happen on a slate.

They are desperate to eat, thats in no doubt. The trick is helping them to get it in. I would mix shreaded weeds or whatever with a dollop of babyfood and some water to make a kind of soup which she would drink. she would often go back to her food dish during the day.

If you do decide to try this I would advise you to seperate your from other hatchlings. As my others used to bite Ivory. I dont know if this was because she was different or maybe they could smell food on her ( She used to wallow and get covered in it! I would wash her off well, but maybe they could smell it?)

[CherryBrandy]

I hope all goes well. I am not sure if this helps or hinders at all but one of my small ones wouldn't open his mouth and/or eat and use to keep his head low and when I took him to the vets the vet showed me if you turn them upside down (I know horrid and he was about 14 months old so bit older) a tortoise should automatically open his mouth and raise his head. I also had to give drops through the nostrils for another. I haven't tested all mine for that theory but the ones I had to give anti biotics for it did work - but they were older. It also does strengthen the muscles in the neck apparently for when they tip over - normal reflex to stretch out neck , shift shell to get a grip with claw as you are probably aware. The other thing I use to do was very gentle wipe with wet cucumber. I don't know why but it seemed to get the appetite going and softened any dry mouth. CB

[Hanako]

I think the one that opens mouth a little bit has a chance, even though not a huge one. But at least something can go in. I tried today again mazuri pellet, completely mashed into thicker paste and when she tried to eat from my finger, I just shoved it into the slit of her mouth. The majority stayed outside, but at least something must have gone in. I don't think she will be getting enough food, but tortoises in the wild also had periods when there was not that much food around. If I manage like this for a few years, the bigger she will be, the easier it would get for the vet to open her mouth, even if it had to be done through surgery. I don't think I will go for tube feeding because it can't be done forever, but if there is anything that can be done to repair whatever is wrong with her mouth or jaw, she may be alright. The other one, though, I don't have much hope. It is horrible. It feels that I am waiting for them to starve to death. What a horrible death, to be surrounded by food and die starving!

[alley cat]

Originally Posted by Hanako

The other one, though, I don't have much hope. It is horrible. It feels that I am waiting for them to starve to death. What a horrible death, to be surrounded by food and die starving!

Maybe you should get them put to sleep so that they aren't suffering