The BCG

[Geomyda]

I wonder what would happen if the membership voted NO to the incumbent Committee?
Perhaps, this might provide the retribution that many feel is due too them!
No doubt however, the next newsletter will be published and for, oh so many of the poor members much of this debacle will have simply passed them by.
Like Mushrooms, they have been kept in the dark!!
Maybe, the venue of the proposed AGM in Milton Keynes will be overwhelmed by members who simply want to listen to the Chairman and his entourage explain how against sound advice, they commited to further support a failed operation in Italy and then hide the facts when the weight of not one, but two major legal actions brought the failed project to its knees?

[Box girl]

But will that make any difference? The membership of course are still unaware of all that is happening as their information medium has been devoid of any information least of all how to apply for posts on the committee.
The committee think so much of their members that they are only prepared to talk via the website to a fraction of them!
We wait and see.

Originally Posted by Geomyda

I wonder what would happen if the membership voted NO to the incumbent Committee?
Perhaps, this might provide the retribution that many feel is due too them!
No doubt however, the next newsletter will be published and for, oh so many of the poor members much of this debacle will have simply passed them by.
Like Mushrooms, they have been kept in the dark!!
Maybe, the venue of the proposed AGM in Milton Keynes will be overwhelmed by members who simply want to listen to the Chairman and his entourage explain how against sound advice, they commited to further support a failed operation in Italy and then hide the facts when the weight of not one, but two major legal actions brought the failed project to its knees?

[Geomyda]

Just under a month to go before the Symposium at Milton Keynes.
Who is planning on going?

[EJ]

Are you driving up with Steve?

I'm considering flying in on friday morning and leaving Sunday. The meeting is on Saturday... right?

Originally Posted by Geomyda

Just under a month to go before the Symposium at Milton Keynes.
Who is planning on going?

[Geomyda]

Originally Posted by EJ

Are you driving up with Steve?

I'm considering flying in on friday morning and leaving Sunday. The meeting is on Saturday... right?

Ed,
I will check with Steve and get back too you. With Justin Gerlach giving a talk on Seychelles, It might be interesting to question him on the Tortoise farms on Reunion?
In answer to your question about the date, yes it is scheduled for Saturday 13th March 2010. The same venue as last year.

[EJ]

Are you questioning the farm on Reunion also??????

Originally Posted by Geomyda

Ed,
I will check with Steve and get back too you. With Justin Gerlach giving a talk on Seychelles, It might be interesting to question him on the Tortoise farms on Reunion?
In answer to your question about the date, yes it is scheduled for Saturday 13th March 2010. The same venue as last year.

[Geomyda]

Originally Posted by EJ

Are you questioning the farm on Reunion also??????

No not at all. The pic's on the other thread look very good.
It would be interesting to hear however, what Justin has to say about it?
Given the reproductive capacity of these Giant Tortoises, it seems that recovery of his other species of Aldabran Giants would seem to be very feasible.
Whilst I did try to contact Steve last night by the way, I think it unlikely that he will attend as he usually goes to Hamm, which of course is also that same weekend.

[Geomyda]

[QUOTE=NFI;350614]I sometimes wonder if you and I are looking at totally different web sites. I give you the exact links to the pages you say are missing and still you say



Baffling. Perhaps you need to refresh the Web Pages more often in your browser.
NFI.
It seems finally someone is listening and maybe starting to respond to constructive criticism?
Tonight the new Homepage layout has been uploaded:http://www.britishcheloniagroup.org.uk/
This is certainly an improvement!
However, couple of outstanding points;
1. The statement by the conservation officer is still inaccurate, my pm refers, which still remains unanswered. Of course, these questions were also copied to the Conservation officer in early January, after the statement was first posted.
2. The AGM date and venue has now disappeared from the events page. Are we to assume, that the date and venue are being reconsidered. Of course, I understand that you may not know the answer to this but I am sure the question will get back to those that are making these decisions?

[Geomyda]

Got your copy of the latest Newsletter yet?

[romski]

Originally Posted by Geomyda

NFI
For information, the attached picture shows an arial view of the site. The Terrapin Lakes in the top right hand corner are a fraction of the volumes stated by the BCG. Can you or anyone else sensibly say that they are suitable accommodation for 10600 Terrapins????

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/shell...-group-19.html


Im now in a position to pick this up again.

Probably a bit of background would be useful. I caught my first wild Painted Turtle in 1974 in a little pond in Freedom, New Hampshire since then I have been committed to American turtles. I have lived in the USA twice and have been a member of herpetological and chelonian societies over there. My other hobby is canoeing so I have had the very good fortune to watch and catch turtles in their habitats from Vancouver to Maine, from Michigan to Florida. I have also had the very good fortune to meet some excellent American keepers in that time and learn from them.

Upon return to the UK I was lucky enough to have the time and resources to build a custom pond for my turtles. I have had the pond running now for some 8 hibernation cycles. It even has American pond plants and fishes in it.

Its volume is some 200 cubic metres and it is naturally fed and is unfiltered. It is effectively a natural pond. Over the years I have stocked it by rehoming American turtles; mostly sliders and cooters. I have rehomed many animals now and feel that over that time I have gained some experience with the issues associated with rehoming.



I have compared my results with those of the Red Eared Terrapin Education Centre RETEC and find my own findings very similar to their start up experience.

In a nutshell, animals that have been kept in a glass box which are then rehomed into a bigger pond with other animals have a probability of surviving of no better than 50%. Yep I too had to think twice.


Lets explore the reasons.

1)They have never had to go through a selection process as they would in the wild. So the weak ones are still part of the population.
2)Mostly they have been kept in clinical conditions with no contact with natural pathogens so no natural immunity is ever built up.
3)The hibernation process is frighteningly hard on a turtles physiology, Kevin Eatwells excellent talk last year at the BCG symposium explained how many of the organs change for hibernation. The blood cycle is modified and even the calcium in the carapace is used as a buffer for blood chemistry. If the animals has had problems for whatever reasons including poor diet and its body or organs have not grown well then it simply will not have all the tools to see it through hibernation. We have all seen animals with poor diet and Vit A and Vit D problems – these just dont make it.
4)Contrary to popular opinion sliders are not as hardy as advertised. There is just a lot of them, so statistically some survive.
5)I was fortunate enough to have visited Elmar Meier in Munster Zoo recently and part of the discussion centred upon stress and the effect it had on the immune system and on aggressive behaviour. Tortoise keepers see stress manifest very easily in their pets yet turtles also suffer from stress but because of their environment and current husbandry practices it is not as fully recognised. Stress we know reduces the immune system.
6)In an overstocked enclosed pond disease will spread like wildfire and it is simply impractical to screen these animals for all diseases.

In my pond I have a stock of some 15 animals. I have been as high as 20+. Even then I have seen some bickering going on particularly in the desire for the best sunbathing spots. Based on my experience I would not therefore stock at a higher density than 1 animals per 10 cubic metres. Remember it is unfiltered but is very well planted. I have never seen a turtle density approaching this in the wild. The plants make all the difference.

Plants provide cover and privacy. Plants help in the management of waste from the animals. Plants provide some 80% of the diet for the adult animals. Plants provide hot water spots for sunbathing. It is my opinion that plants are vital for the complete health of these animals.

I have also lived in Italy for two years and am familiar with the country and climate well so am able to judge what can and cannot be compared.

So thats my starting point.

Looking at the picture on this site http://www.britishcheloniagroup.org....apax2010-5.jpg and comparing it to the one posted above there is more water so lets use that boat as a measure for size estimation. To be on the generous side lets assume that the boat is 3 metres long. So as a guess the pond is some 6 lengths of the boat say 18metres wide. In the same way the pond is about 75 metres long. Lets ignore the island and the fact there are corners. Lets also be generous and agree its 1 metre deep. That makes it 1350 cubic metres. For the sake of even more tolerance lets round it up to 1500 cubic metres. Remember that this seems to be at full water and is stated as such in the article. The photo from CARAPAX site shows a less well filled pond.

On that basis “Lake Louisiana” is about 8 times bigger than my pond – hardly much to make a fuss about.

There are no plants in the lake, it is enclosed and unfiltered so how is the crap dealt with?

By my standards (and I am willing to take other opinions) at 1 animal to 10 cubic metres it should hold 150 animals. Lets say I am FOUR times wrong so lets go with 600 animals. Remember there are no plants and no filters.

The letter says 10,000 plus animals. So how do the sums add up???

Oh yes the mortality rate so put 5000 animals down to initial death rate. Would that explain the Salmonella outbreak recently reported in the Italian press. Why has nothing ever been said about the death rate???

At 5000 thats still over 3.3 animals per cubic metre. That is some 33 times more dense than my experience even allowing for the calculation errors.

Oh some have escaped havent they. No one knows how many. Even if that accounts for only a few hundred there is still a numbers discrepancy.

Think of it in tortoise terms 3 animals per square metre over the whole area...... Remember that turtles only have the bank for sunbathing, say 200 sq metres so that makes it 25 animals per sq metre.

Someone somewhere has it wrong. I am happy to be corrected.

Paul is the letter a hoax?

Rom