Shelled Warriors Forums
 

Go Back   Shelled Warriors Forums > Tortoise Information > Mediterranean Tortoises - Information & Questions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 18-10-2018, 02:46 PM   #1
jimothy
Junior Member
Egg
 
jimothy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: London
Posts: 49
Question Aggressive hatchling behaviour

Thank you for your advice in advance.

We have recently taken on two hatchling spur-thighed tortoises, Pythagoras (P - hatched 18/8/18) and Darwin (D - hatched 21/8/18). Obviously we are nervous first time parents!

In most ways they seem to be progressing well, eating a mixture of weeds, pooping, sleeping by burying themselves, waking, active during the day. They live together in a standard tortoise table with lamp on soil/sand mix.

Initially P was 1gram heavier and the more active. Over last few weeks D has become active for more hours of the day, eating more and even aggressive or clambering over and even biting P (see YouTube video link below). P stays away from the food bowl when D is eating. P has now overtaken D in weight - which has not increased in last 4 weeks.

On inspection their eyes, nose, legs, shell, cloaca all look ok as far as I can tell.

I am guessing this is normal behaviour but am worried we may have to separate them if P fails to grow. I knew this would be necessary if one was female but wouldn’t have to cross that bridge until they were older.

Would it be helpful to put two lots of food out? Or anything else we can do?

https://youtu.be/xOEDdMbImNM
jimothy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2018, 08:47 AM   #2
SweetGreekTorts
Junior Member
Egg
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 20
Default

I would separate them. I've had to do that with some of my hatchlings at times, and the smaller one always thrives when it has its own enclosure, own basking spot, own food dish, etc.
__________________
Kitty
www.sweetgreektorts.com
Testudo graeca and Malacochersus tornieri
SweetGreekTorts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2018, 10:31 AM   #3
sandy
Senior Member
Adult
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kent UK
Posts: 12,144
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimothy View Post
Thank you for your advice in advance.

We have recently taken on two hatchling spur-thighed tortoises, Pythagoras (P - hatched 18/8/18) and Darwin (D - hatched 21/8/18). Obviously we are nervous first time parents!

In most ways they seem to be progressing well, eating a mixture of weeds, pooping, sleeping by burying themselves, waking, active during the day. They live together in a standard tortoise table with lamp on soil/sand mix.

Initially P was 1gram heavier and the more active. Over last few weeks D has become active for more hours of the day, eating more and even aggressive or clambering over and even biting P (see YouTube video link below). P stays away from the food bowl when D is eating. P has now overtaken D in weight - which has not increased in last 4 weeks.


On inspection their eyes, nose, legs, shell, cloaca all look ok as far as I can tell.

I am guessing this is normal behaviour but am worried we may have to separate them if P fails to grow. I knew this would be necessary if one was female but wouldn’t have to cross that bridge until they were older.

Would it be helpful to put two lots of food out? Or anything else we can do?

https://youtu.be/xOEDdMbImNM
They look like iberas to me:0)
I have kept and bred them for over 36yrs, and they are great tortoises.

How long have they been together?
What space do they have in their enclosure?
What temps are you keeping?
You can get greedy tortoises, and iberas can be very greedy. When I had hatchlings like this I used to feed them separately.
Remember tortoises like us grow at different rates, and generally its females that are the larger of the species. As long as they are not losing weight I wouldnt worry.
Given time they will get used to each other. The odd nip is not going to hurt them, provided its the shell and legs. The vulnerable area is the eyes.
You look to have plenty of plants, maybe some barriers like large stones, pieces of wood. So they dont see each other all the time might help.:0)
__________________
< > 60+, keeping ibera, graeca and box turtles
\0/
/_\

http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/tortoisefriends
sandy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2018, 04:59 PM   #4
jimothy
Junior Member
Egg
 
jimothy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: London
Posts: 49
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy View Post
They look like iberas to me:0)
I have kept and bred them for over 36yrs, and they are great tortoises.

How long have they been together?
What space do they have in their enclosure?
What temps are you keeping?
You can get greedy tortoises, and iberas can be very greedy. When I had hatchlings like this I used to feed them separately.
Remember tortoises like us grow at different rates, and generally its females that are the larger of the species. As long as they are not losing weight I wouldnt worry.
Given time they will get used to each other. The odd nip is not going to hurt them, provided its the shell and legs. The vulnerable area is the eyes.
You look to have plenty of plants, maybe some barriers like large stones, pieces of wood. So they dont see each other all the time might help.:0)
When you say the look like Iberas does that mean they aren’t spur thighednot just a different type? The species definitions seem quite confusing!

They have been together since hatching in the same table - 4 weeks with the breeder then with us since then. They have a 90x45 cm table to share,the temp is 30-32 at the hot end and 18-20 at the cool end.

Most of the time they avoid/ignore each other but some more barriers i will definitely try and create more privacy with to avoid conflict.

I tried putting down two trays of food yesterday but they both went for the one they were used to but will keep trying.
jimothy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2018, 05:01 PM   #5
jimothy
Junior Member
Egg
 
jimothy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: London
Posts: 49
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetGreekTorts View Post
I would separate them. I've had to do that with some of my hatchlings at times, and the smaller one always thrives when it has its own enclosure, own basking spot, own food dish, etc.
When you say separate you mean in a completely different table or just a barrier down the middle?
jimothy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2018, 03:11 PM   #6
emma_mcraf
Senior Member
Adult
 
emma_mcraf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Devon
Posts: 11,364
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimothy View Post
When you say the look like Iberas does that mean they aren’t spur thighednot just a different type? The species definitions seem quite confusing!

They have been together since hatching in the same table - 4 weeks with the breeder then with us since then. They have a 90x45 cm table to share,the temp is 30-32 at the hot end and 18-20 at the cool end.

Most of the time they avoid/ignore each other but some more barriers i will definitely try and create more privacy with to avoid conflict.

I tried putting down two trays of food yesterday but they both went for the one they were used to but will keep trying.
Just re-read this thread and realised they are only 2 months old. They’re quite young to be moved on by the breeder, but you seem to want to do the best for them so hopefully we can offer advice that will help.
Firstly, I’d increase the size of the table. They will need a bigger one eventually so it might be worth investing in one now. Then you can add the stones and pieces of wood as sight barriers as Sandy suggested. Potentially you could have two slates for food and physically put them singly at each one when it’s food time. Then you can monitor food intake and weight gain more effectively and hopefully the pair of them will get on better.
I never had trouble with my hatchlings at this young age, even males sharing. It’s when they get to about two years old that the aggressive behaviour can start.
So it’s worth bearing in mind that if you have two males, they may need separate tables eventually. That can be easily solved by ‘bunk’ style tables, one on top of the other, which doesn’t take up any more floor space.
Good luck and let us know how you get on.
__________________
Emma

Testudo Hermanni 5.12.2:Theo, Tamara, Tabitha, Harriet, Isabelle, Clara, Oscar, Hugo, Oliver, Florence, Arabella, Esmé, Aurelia, Felicia, Claudia, Atticus, Celestia, Amaris, Tristan and Clementine
Budgies: Jasper, Ivo, Otis, Henry, Louie and Luca
Doggies: 1.1.0 Chester and Lottie

emma_mcraf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2018, 03:24 PM   #7
sandy
Senior Member
Adult
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kent UK
Posts: 12,144
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimothy View Post
When you say separate you mean in a completely different table or just a barrier down the middle?
Feed differently by taking one out for a while, while the other feeds:0)
Or if the table is big enough (which it needs to be) then feed one one end and the other the other:0)
Barriers, well if the table were big enough, then you could well put in a temporary barrier right across. Then that would sort the feeding out.
Or a partial barrier across so they can see each other that easily.
When you have two hatchlings they have to sort out who is alpha. This is why one will bite and ram the other. Once they have sorted this out, the problem should get less. But they do need a large space to get away from each other. My hatchling enclosures were around 4ft x 2ft so had plenty of room to get away from others.
__________________
< > 60+, keeping ibera, graeca and box turtles
\0/
/_\

http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/tortoisefriends
sandy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2018, 03:27 PM   #8
sandy
Senior Member
Adult
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kent UK
Posts: 12,144
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by emma_mcraf View Post
Just re-read this thread and realised they are only 2 months old. They’re quite young to be moved on by the breeder, but you seem to want to do the best for them so hopefully we can offer advice that will help.
Firstly, I’d increase the size of the table. They will need a bigger one eventually so it might be worth investing in one now. Then you can add the stones and pieces of wood as sight barriers as Sandy suggested. Potentially you could have two slates for food and physically put them singly at each one when it’s food time. Then you can monitor food intake and weight gain more effectively and hopefully the pair of them will get on better.
I never had trouble with my hatchlings at this young age, even males sharing. It’s when they get to about two years old that the aggressive behaviour can start.
So it’s worth bearing in mind that if you have two males, they may need separate tables eventually. That can be easily solved by ‘bunk’ style tables, one on top of the other, which doesn’t take up any more floor space.
Good luck and let us know how you get on.
I must have been lucky as I never in over 36yrs had problems keeping more than one male together. As long as they had enough space to keep away from each other.
But I think iberas are probably the most tolerant of each other when mixing males. As long as there is not a female in sight:0)
__________________
< > 60+, keeping ibera, graeca and box turtles
\0/
/_\

http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/tortoisefriends
sandy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2018, 05:28 PM   #9
emma_mcraf
Senior Member
Adult
 
emma_mcraf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Devon
Posts: 11,364
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy View Post
I must have been lucky as I never in over 36yrs had problems keeping more than one male together. As long as they had enough space to keep away from each other.
But I think iberas are probably the most tolerant of each other when mixing males. As long as there is not a female in sight:0)
I had three male Hermanns sharing a table from about 6 months of age to two and a half. At two years, they started mounting one another but another six months later, they started ramming. They're now all adults and all my males have separate enclosures. The adults will fight regardless of whether a female is in sight or not.
So that's five separate enclosures for them outside. Thank goodness all the females get on and share beautifully!
__________________
Emma

Testudo Hermanni 5.12.2:Theo, Tamara, Tabitha, Harriet, Isabelle, Clara, Oscar, Hugo, Oliver, Florence, Arabella, Esmé, Aurelia, Felicia, Claudia, Atticus, Celestia, Amaris, Tristan and Clementine
Budgies: Jasper, Ivo, Otis, Henry, Louie and Luca
Doggies: 1.1.0 Chester and Lottie

emma_mcraf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2018, 05:37 PM   #10
Ozric Jonathan
Senior Member
Adult
 
Ozric Jonathan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: West of Scotland
Posts: 4,226
Default

My experience is the same as Emma's. Once the males start to sexually mature they will fight each other. Even if the enclosure is really large they find each other in seconds and bite and ram immediately. I think the western hermann males are more aggressive than the Eastern.I no longer try any males together.
__________________
Testudo Hermanni Hermanni (Corse) tortoises
Ozric Jonathan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.